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[Selroth]

For anyone who cares, here's an interesting read.  Is RAWR the "official Draconity.org" group? 


Either way, Dafydd doesn't seem to be very rational about any of this.  Our conversation is as follows:


[16:28:30] <Dafydd> Do you have a minute for me to talk to you?
[16:28:46] <Selroth> Sure
[16:28:53] <Selroth> What's up?
[16:31:21] <Dafydd> sorry, got yanked afk for a moment
[16:31:35] <Selroth> No worries.
[16:32:16] <Dafydd> Did you know Rocangus made a 'draconity.org' group? We already had a RAWR group and we deliberately made it so that we didn't have gamers flooding the forums. Rocangus with no permission made a group telling everybody publicly what draconity.org is and where it is on steam and then started inviting everyone from rawr to it
[16:32:46] <Dafydd> We went to the trouble of doing polls and such for RAWR to *not* advertise draconity.org on things like steam
[16:33:10] <Selroth> I know.  I helped him set it up.
[16:33:11] <Selroth> Heh.
[16:33:33] <Dafydd> why? we all talked about this before on the forums, and that's what RAWR is for
[16:33:40] <Selroth> If you're talking about the RAWR group before it went to Steam, then it was seperated from Draconomicon due to roleplay.
[16:33:49] <Dafydd> we did that so that we didn't get tons of people trying to join the forum that weren't otherkin
[16:34:14] <Dafydd> no, we have a STEAM GROUP called RAWR, your're a member of it
[16:34:15] <Selroth> I'm not otherkin and I run the forum :)
[16:34:28] <Dafydd> then out of the blue Rocangus makes a draconity.org group. We already have RAWR!
[16:34:37] <Selroth> OK, so this isn't about the old roleplay thingy?  Cause that I think was called rawr too.
[16:34:40] <Dafydd> we don't want people spamming us with 'I'm Spyro!"
[16:34:49] <Dafydd> no, not the role play thing
[16:34:52] <Dafydd> steam grups
[16:34:54] <Dafydd> steam groups*
[16:34:55] <Selroth> OK
[16:34:57] <Selroth> Gotcha.
[16:34:57] <Dafydd> you know, valve games?
[16:35:08] <Dafydd> We already have R.A.W.R as the offical draconity.org group
[16:35:13] <Selroth> Yep.  I know very well of steam and RAWR on steam.
[16:35:19] <Dafydd> why the heck did Rocangus make a draconity.org one?
[16:35:23] <Selroth> Is it the official draconity.org group?
[16:35:37] <Selroth> *Takes a look*

[16:36:05] <Dafydd> It was last I checked as we all did polls on it's name, and we had a near endless debate about wither or not we should have RAWR mention draconity.org and we all decided to NOT mention draconity.org to stop unwanted people joining the forums
[16:36:42] <Dafydd> we all agreed video games and draconity.org should not be joined. Draconity involves personal things like spirituralty, not have mass members from video game communities joining
[16:36:44] <Selroth> So...  it's not an official draconity.org group?
[16:36:54] <Selroth> I dun care who tries to join the forums :)
[16:37:02] <Selroth> If that wasn't my stance earlier, sorry if I changed my mind.
[16:37:06] <Dafydd> RAWR - Really Aggressive Winged Reptiles, that was our clan name on the forums for games
[16:37:35] <Dafydd> if it was game related on draconity, it was in the RAWR clean
[16:37:38] <Dafydd> clan*
[16:37:54] <Dafydd> We did polls and posts about this on the forums ages ago
[16:38:08] <Dafydd> I made RAWR by popular demand for draconity
[16:38:39] <Dafydd> we didn't want draconity.org advertised on things like steam, it brings too many unwated types of users
[16:38:47] <Selroth> OK.  I get that we didn't want people to go from RAWR to draconity.org.  But what efforts have been made, other than initial kick-off, to get people from draconity.org to RAWR?
[16:39:01] <Dafydd> That's why we have people to applications and interviews now to join draconity, to try and stop the flood of people
[16:39:33] <Selroth> Erm, that's not exactly why we do applications.  There's no interview either.
[16:39:34] <Dafydd> I kept posting about it, and it was supposed to be stickied
[16:39:35] <Selroth> Heehee.
[16:39:45] <Dafydd> it seems at some point you removed the 'games' section and the sticky went with it
[16:40:23] <Dafydd> I've constantly posted about RAWR, and if you go look, most members of RAWR are all from draconity.org
[16:41:04] <Dafydd> all Rocangus is doing is pulling everyone from RAWR to the new Draconity.org group, completely defeating the purpose of RAWR
[16:41:11] <Selroth> Last mention of RAWR was march of 2010.  Saying the link was broken.  Before that, the last mention was April 18, 2008.  I'd say RAWR and Draconity.org became rather seperate.  If we wanna get close to eachother again, we can talk about that.
[16:41:23] <Dafydd> I haven't gone to the forums in ages
[16:41:28] <Selroth> You know that people can be in multiple groups at once in Steam, right?
[16:41:35] <Dafydd> I figured people would have done the favor of keeping it updated
[16:41:46] <Dafydd> Selroth, why have two damn groups that do the exact same THING?
[16:41:48] <Selroth> That's rather bad figuring :)
[16:41:59] <Dafydd> why not have 20 dragon groups then all with the same damn charter?
[16:42:06] <Dafydd> there's no point
[16:42:16] <Selroth> Why are you getting upset?  I'm trying to keep a constructive conversation, with potential for a resolution to make us both happy?
[16:42:25] <Dafydd> I'm not here to manage everything for everybody, I'm getting sick of it

[16:43:20] <Dafydd> So thanks, I wasted all this time making and keeping RAWR going, for draconity.org, had polls and all of this, and without a single mention of it, Roc gos and makes a 'draconity.org' one in it's place?
[16:43:46] <Dafydd> I did polls for the name, about wither or not we should reference draconity.org in it, and so forth
[16:44:02] <Selroth> It looks like all 5 members in the Draconity.org steam group are also in RAWR.
[16:44:10] <Dafydd> everyone aggreed that we'd rather not reference draconity.org, because steam is for games, not spirituralility, we just wanted it to play with other dragonkin and friends
[16:44:22] <Dafydd> That's my point
[16:44:35] <Dafydd> draconity.org is nothing but a small, bad copy of rawr
[16:44:40] <Selroth> If you're going to remain upset, get defensive, and accusing, this conversation is over.
[16:44:46] <Selroth> Is it going to be that way?
[16:44:58] <Dafydd> Selroth, I did polls and forums about this, what did Roc do before setting this up?
[16:45:05] <Selroth> I'm trying to work with you, but first we have to get our facts straight.
[16:45:08] <Dafydd> did he ask anybody? get opinions from members of draconity?
[16:45:37] <Dafydd> with only 5 members, I doubt that
[16:46:28] <Selroth> I could drop the name of a steam group in the next newsletter probably dump 100 people into the group.
[16:46:33] <Selroth> Whichever group.
[16:46:39] <Selroth> If you want it to be RAWR, then let's talk.
[16:47:40] <Selroth> So, we cool?
[16:47:45] <Selroth> Can we have a rational talk about this?
[16:47:47] <Dafydd> I went to do much effort to not publicly advertise draconity.org while letting all members know about it. I tried keeping the forums where dragonkin can find it, without being overwhelmed by people trying to role play being dnd monsters and the like. I managed RAWR for the group for over a year now. This is a real slap in the face. You'd be upset too
[16:48:27] <Selroth> OK.  We're done here.  How's that for a slap in the face? 

[16:50:38] <Dafydd> If I must, then I'll send a notice to everyone in rawr telling them that I'm closing it down. I'll delete all my posts on draconity.org and leave as it seems draconity.org isn't about serious discussion about draconic belifes and awakenings anymore, but about pretending to be monsters from video games and multimedia. I hoped it'd never turn into that like some other places did. It was a safe haven. Guess
[16:50:38] <Dafydd> Roc can go on secondlife and make some replacement for the dragonkin group there too. I'm sick of doing interviews for it to stop role players from flooding the channels


[16:52:50] <Dafydd> thanks for making all my efforts feel worthless Sel. I shouldn't bother anymore trying to do things for the community, I just keep getting let down

[Selroth]

Personally, I've hardly heard of the group.  I mean, I see it on Steam a lot, knew it originated from Draconity.org, but last relationship I can draw between it and Draconity.org was in 2008.  I haven't even seen Dafydd since then.  So him thinking it was the "official Draconity.org steam group" before Roc's new group was news to me.


I don't see how he's feeling betrayed when Draconity.org's relationship with RAWR was weak, if existent at all today.  And if he's going to attack us and belittle us, then well... threads like this happen.


I'm open for opinions on further action (if any).

[Alastago]

Yes, i'm with dafydd here: it WAS relatively known that there was a thread for the RAWR group on here, i posted there to get into it too. Now; just like dafydd said, rocangus is pretty much just pulling the members over. Who is in the draconity.org steam group that isn't in the RAWR group? What is the added value of this? Í'm probably just repeating what was said, but it IS pretty much assholery to just completely ignore the RAWR group and go ahead and have someone random shamelessly make a new group, without even paying attention to the previous group.

[Selroth]

Keep in mind that Rocangus, and I, have good intentions.  We didn't mean to step on anyone's toes, and if that's what we did we'll back off an apologize, I'm sure. 


But, is that what we're doing?  I wouldn't know, I don't pay attention to steam groups.  That's why I need to hear it from other people because Dafydd is about attacking me.

[Dafydd_Edward_Dragon]

You know, I and others have been running the RAWR group for Draconity.org for years now. We had topics and polls on Draconity repeated times about things from it's name to wither or not we will reference the draconity.org address in the group. The name was decided on 'really aggressive winged reptiles' which got the most votes, and it was also decided on that we wanted a group that dragonkin and friends could play games together, but not tie back to draconity.org, because draconity.org is about our spiritual beliefs, not about video games, and frankly most of us don't want people who know of us from video games, following us back to draconity.org reading our personal and deep posts about ourselves. That's why RAWR was made.

I haven't gone to the forums much, but it seems nobody did me any favours of even making word of that RAWR existed despite all the effort put into it's construction. I have 44 members in RAWR who most are from draconity.org. As this was it's purpose.

Without any notice or warning Rocangus made a group called 'draconity.org' on steam, without asking about people's opinions on the forums about this, giving an advertisement about what draconity.org is and a link to get here right on steam where anybody you play video games with will see it. This completely defeats the purpose of why RAWR was made, giving a buffer zone between where dragonkin can play together, without giving away too much information about us we wouldn't feel comfortable people knowing about. This 'draconity.org' group only has 5 members in it, and thus far zero activity. In RAWR with 44 members, we've tried making various events and keeping each other tied into what's going in in the group.

So it's your choice people. Personally I feel back stabbed here. I kept this group running all this time for draconity.org and dragonkin in general, then without as much as a word, I have this new group pop up, with people in RAWR being invited to it behind my back, never even told of it's existence. I only even learned about it by my friend's random browsing.

So if there's any sense left in this place, vote on it. Choose what you want to do about this. If you want draconity.org group to exist, telling everybody what we are here, why we're here, and how to join to people you play video games with in which for most of us we try to keep such identity to ourselves, then so be it. I'll either delete RAWR or do whatever with it, and I'll leave draconity.org all together, because personally, *I* don't want people I play video games online with going through my posts here, knowing about my inner most deep beliefs about my draconity.

This was an utter slap in my face and makes me regret working to have something for this community trying to give back to it after it helped me so much throughout my own awakening. It saddens me seeing what places like this are comming to.

Sincerely

Dafydd Edward Dragon

[Aurelia]

I've got to say, I'm with Daffyd on this and agree with most of what Alastago said, but not all of it.

Roc loves the site and wants to do things to help out, which is great and I'm really glad he loves to be so involved :)  That said, I ws surprised about the steam group because RAWR was already in existence and even though I didn't realise it was the official draconity.org group, I did see it as the official dragonkin group.

I didn't like the fact that the group Roc set up had a description or used the name of the site because it is opening things up for trolls here but also possible abuse to members on steam who join it.  I didn't join it for that reason and was going to bring this stuff up when I got chance, but just haven't had enough free time lately :/

I can understand why Daffyd is upset and I would be too. I said before that I didn't think we needed another group when one already existed, but as Roc had talked to Sel about it before he did anything I didn't know what had been said and again didn't have enough time to devote to finding out.

[Iothisk]

Personally, I think Dafydd is overreacting a bit. If this is all about maintaining seperation of "gamership" and "spiritual belief" then all you have to do is NOT join th Draconity.org group and make no reference to otherkinship.

If this is about being "official" then ties should have stayed stronger with Dorg and someone should have piped up about gaming sections and threads being deleted and such. But since they weren't, you can't blame someone else for taking initiative to start up a new one.

If this is about who gets to be the top dog, then the conversation is EXTREMELY petty. Dafydd, I feel you would have really been better off just ignoring the other group's formation rather than raising such a stink about it.

If you're afraid of losing friendships because of Draconity, in all honesty the friendships lost are likely pretty shallow and not worth keeping.

I'm not sure I understand this situation though, and I'll repost after rereading if it suddenly dawns on me.

[Dafydd_Edward_Dragon]

Personally, I think Dafydd is overreacting a bit. If this is all about maintaining seperation of "gamership" and "spiritual belief" then all you have to do is NOT join th Draconity.org group and make no reference to otherkinship.

Unfortunately, on steam, all someone has to do is either A. come across that group, get curious, and join the forum, or B. look on MY profile, see my friend's profiles, and find it that way. The group publicly announces draconity.org to everybody on steam.

If this is about being "official" then ties should have stayed stronger with Dorg and someone should have piped up about gaming sections and threads being deleted and such. But since they weren't, you can't blame someone else for taking initiative to start up a new one.

Rocangus is a MEMBER OF RAWR! He knows it exists, he knows it's active, he knows what it's all about, and he's been in the group for a long time now. He didn't need to go behind our backs and start a new group. His 5 members have been members of RAWR for years. He's added nothing, and all he does have is stolen. He did not ask member's opinions on this, and he's representing our entire community without any of us having our opinions on it.

Finally, I don't care one damn bit about who's 'top dog' I made RAWR to play with dragonkin friends and for draconity.org. I and many other's put a lot of effort into creating it. All Roc did was make a cheap copy of something that already exists and slap the name of our community on it as though all of us were at his back with this. He didn't even ask any of us about it.

[Dafydd_Edward_Dragon]

I ought to add, I don't mind Rocangus making his own groups. Go right ahead, but he does *NOT* have the right to reference draconity.org, our community, use our logo, or anything about it without a vast majority concent from the community!  If his group was 'Dragonz' and it's charter was "a group for dragonkin"  or the like, fine, go for it. But it's not. The group is flat out called "Draconity.org" it's charter talks about who we are here and what draconity.org is, and even links to the website. This is not his place to do this without the community's backing him on it. I don't recall *ANY* of us having a vote on this. I may not post much here these days, but I still lurk, and there was no big poll about this new group.

[Redalgo]

I am averse to the idea of publicly advertising the forum in such an unsuitably gamer-rich environment. That being said, I have never heard of RAWR and do not understand why there is the need for such a spontaneous explosion of emotion and drama. If RAWR is well established with connections to this community it does not make sense to have a second group like Draconity.org on Steam. In that sense, Dafydd's position seems rational. But for there to be a smooth, constructive, and collaborative process in resolving this issue then he's got to chill out a little bit.

As of yet there does not seem to have been any deliberate stabbing of backs or flooding of roleplayers onto the forum. My bet is that Rocangus did this with good intentions as Selroth mentioned. If this is all just an unfortunate misunderstanding - which from first glance it certainly appears to be - then it can be settled in short order without anyone having to raise their voices, issue threats, or set their hair on fire. If Rocangus can be brought into this discussion I am sure this dispute could be easily and painlessly resolved.

[Selroth]

Personally, I think Dafydd is overreacting a bit. If this is all about maintaining seperation of "gamership" and "spiritual belief" then all you have to do is NOT join th Draconity.org group and make no reference to otherkinship.

If this is about being "official" then ties should have stayed stronger with Dorg and someone should have piped up about gaming sections and threads being deleted and such. But since they weren't, you can't blame someone else for taking initiative to start up a new one.

If this is about who gets to be the top dog, then the conversation is EXTREMELY petty. Dafydd, I feel you would have really been better off just ignoring the other group's formation rather than raising such a stink about it.

If you're afraid of losing friendships because of Draconity, in all honesty the friendships lost are likely pretty shallow and not worth keeping.

I'm not sure I understand this situation though, and I'll repost after rereading if it suddenly dawns on me.

You pretty much hit my feelings dead-on with it.


I don't care which steam group we "sponsor" if any at all.  To me, both seem to be a bit of a joke at this point.  It hardly means anything at all until we officially advertise it beyond a forum post or host an official Draconity.org event or contest on it.  But, we haven't yet This doesn't mean we never will - I'm getting ideas in my head thanks to this.  Hence me trying to figure out who to actually sponsor.


And I'm not afraid of the unlikely event we get a troll from a gaming group - so the steam group referencing us is fine.  I'm not paranoid of the members we get - look at some of the ones that get in anyway!  LOL.  Our application process primarily stops spam - I imagine anyone with malicious intent doesn't even bother applying, or get bored of waiting for it to be approved.


I don't like the way Daf approached me with this at all.  Granted, to run a lil gaming group doesn't require a lot of administrative experience or level-headedness, but I'd at least like for whoever to run "our official steam group" to have a bit more respect for the administrators.


Right now, I favor sponsoring RAWR simply because it already has a lot of members, it is active from what I've seen, and it's now obvious to me that Dafydd's passionate about the group (which is something very important).  But, I have yet to see Roc's side to this.  I'm kinda hoping he doesn't mind, or would like to instead join RAWR to make it more Draconity.org friendly.


I'm sure Roc started Draconity.org a group because he wanted to contribute to the community, and didn't see RAWR as a medium to do so.  If RAWR is indeed an existing and better medium, then now we know!  And knowing is half the battle!  *dun dun dun DUN!*

[Iothisk]

Okay, I understand this a lot better now I think, but I still don't agree with how much you're letting it get to you. Any rational person investigating Dorg will see that Roc isn't a spokesman for all of us, and if a person decides to troll because of that, let them. However, this is from a spectator's perspective, as I'm not gaming on steam much if at all. From my experience Roc isn't the type of person to do something like this maliciously, so I'd calm down a bit.

[Dafydd_Edward_Dragon]

To Selroth, I don't care wither or not RAWR reclaims tittle of 'official' or not. What I don't want is a group telling people about draconity.org, and what it's about. They don't need to know and I don't like having a steam group representing us holding up a great big Draconity.org flag over it's head. RAWR was made to be quiet about that and just be for games. If you want to make some /other/ group on steam the official draconity.org group, I'll be fine with that, but don't give them the address to the forum on the group's profile page, and don't tell them in such detail who we are!

Say you have a friend on steam that you rather NOT have know all about the delicate things about your draconity. They come across you being in this 'draconity.org' group, and get curious and visit the forums. No, it's not malicious, but they WILL see your posts on draconity.org talking about your awakening, or dreams, or other delicate conversations and know way more about you than you cared to let them know in the first place. Not all of us walk around going "Hi! I'm a dragonkin, you can know everything about me by going to this website" no thank you.

I'd be content with some 'official' group set up like this:

***
Draconity Official Group

A steam group for dragonkin and friends of the community
**
(Note is just says 'Draconity' not 'Draconity.org')

Something like that is fine, there's no address to the forums, you're not publicly announcing too much about us, and most importantly friends won't go to this website and snoop through our posts.

[Selroth]

You can't stop other people from linking to a site.  And if you're so paranoid that someone would join a steam group you're not a part of, and use its connection to the site to find you and your posts, then you're downright paranoid. 


Should I also put in a request to not let Google.com find us?  And maybe file a cease-and-desist with hate sites like Something Awful?


I suppose if you don't care about RAWR being official with Draconity.org or not, then that makes my choice a simple one.  And maybe you're right in deleting your Draconity.org account if you'd be concerned about someone finding your posts here.  But, realistically, that's not going to happen.  We are very well protected, and I have extreme confidence that a gaming group wont ruin our lives.



Oh, you might wanna start with your DeviantArt account first. 


And don't forget about http://www.paradice.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=912


And http://www.1001newsgroups.com/l-alt.fan.dragons.html


...the list goes on.  So far, the only one that I found that protects you from public viewing is Draconity.org.  ...your welcome.

[Dafydd_Edward_Dragon]

You can't stop other people from linking to a site.  And if you're so paranoid that someone would join a steam group you're not a part of, and use its connection to the site to find you and your posts, then you're downright paranoid. 


Should I also put in a request to not let Google.com find us?  And maybe file a cease-and-desist with hate sites like Something Awful?

You say that, yet, yes, you did put a request to not let google.com find you. You LIMIT google on what posts it can show from draconity.org when someone does a google search on it. You keep it from being able to see various posts of the sensitive topics like spirituality.

I know where my name can be found on google, and the results you find are my comments on things, but not some of the deep topics I've made here many of times. Hell Selroth, you have HIDDEN sections of this very forum that only particular types of members can see! Forget about that?  By your view why not just let any anonymous person view any post in any section on draconity and downright run any sense of privacy of this place into the ground?

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