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[Selroth]

Recent drama I stumbled upon has left me to call a poll on what the community feels.  Do you think the site needs more moderation? 


Consider these points when making your decision:


*We are currently by choice a minimal-moderation community.  We very rarely lock threads or ban members.  We let heated discussions carry out, as people still enjoy participating in them even if they don't realize it at the time.  This also builds social skills, and sometimes lets one know how others feel about them.  This is also something that makes Draconity.org unique.


*With minimal moderation, members may get frustrated and leave the site.


*With heavy moderation, members may feel restricted and lose interest.


*There are consequences to ending any discussion abruptly.  It may upset all parties involved, prevents the root of the conflict from being resolved, and nothing is ultimately learned from it.


*No one is going to get physically hurt, and abuse of the technology is strictly prohibited.




Please, take a minute to vote.  And bonus points if you're able to bring up additional points for others to consider!

[sillydraco]

i would have voted that were just right save for the only little point ive seen, aside from which this site and its moderation is actually fairly balanced. the only thing ive seen that we should do differently is step in when people are no longer debating or engaging in conversation in favor of namecalling and flamewars. i mean sure, people need to develop tougher hides when it comes to this sort of thing, but not everyone has been around long enough to do so :3 im not saying lock threads or ban anyone, thats going too far. im also not saying for everyone to walk on eggshells to avoid hurting someones feelings because, well, people need to toughen up anyway :D im ust saying when things get way out of hand and nobody is even on subject anymore, we can step in and say "hey you guys, settle down x3" and nudge things back on track. this place is doing fairly well on its own, it shouldnt require anyting more than that, and even then it will probably only be needed in the heated section and in the irc (which i still never go to >.> i prolly should x3)

[Atlas]

I wouldnt mind a little bit more!

[Airy]

My thoughts are similar to Sillydraco's thoughts.

[Alastago]

Although i mainly lurk(heh), i agree with drako; the ideals of the place are nicely striven after - not a lot of moderation; but i do sometimes see moments where something/someone should jump in, even if it were only pointing the person that they're doing something wrong. When? sometimes i see it isn't an argument anymore, but a personal attack. People take it well, but i don't think that it improves the general atmosphere. So..not necesarily moderation, like deleting and locking, but pointing people at something a bit regularly could very well do the job already.

[Cerapter]

I do not believe in locking and banning to solve problems. I believe in a respectful discussion, perhaps about respect itself if that's what's necessary, to solve conflicts and settle issues. That will only work if all those involved actually care to be a good person and master the problems at hand. The question is, then, are we as a community up to such challenges?

[Selroth]

The problem with introducing even a little bit of moderation is that it changes the entire thing, really.


First, you need consistently active moderators to read just about everything.


Moderators aren't on the same level as members, especially when they have to make a stance on something. 


Moderators can be right or wrong, and no single person can rightfully judge if another person is right or wrong.


Also, in the long run, things can get out of hand permanently.  Bear with me as I explain a little bit about the "Standards and Discipline" concept.  Fair supervisors (this in a way includes moderators and administrators) need to set clear, objective, measurable, and achievable standards for those they supervise.  If any of the subordinates do not meet these minimum standards, something is wrong in the system.  If the standards are good, then it's right to discipline or correct the subordinate.  If the standards are corrupt, then unnecessary discipline will result, causing permanent damage to cohesiveness.  A bit about discipline is that if it is NOT carried out, it will become less effective or cause other problems such as the perception of weak leadership, favoritism, and empty threats. 


It may seem irrelevant, or a bit too in depth, but... think about it.  Think about if something did go wrong, and how much damage that could cause to the community.  Realize how easy it is for a moderator or admin to fuck up, especially when things get heated.






Now, I'd like to offer an alternative to those who would like to see a bit more moderation.  When you have a "problem member", the vast majority of the time they do not realize it.  Problem members do not constantly question themselves, and shouldn't as it's very unhealthy (these are those who don't take a firm stance on anything thus go with the flow too much).  They may become such a problem and resistant that they appear to be malicious, and labeled to be a troll.  Very very rarely is this their intent.


These people do not know that they are a problem to the community.  They may well know that one or two people strongly disagree with them, but they see nothing wrong with that.  They don't, however, know that many more people disagree with them, that many people are losing respect for them, or that they are annoying to all those who are silent.


Speak up!  Call them out!  If there's a problem member, let them know what they are doing to the community.  And I encourage those who agree to do the same, because one person calling them out will just make an ass of themselves (even if it's a moderator or admin).  We are not a community that prohibits this kind of behavioral correction.  There are far too many communities that do this, thus the problem member never gets corrected, and the behavior gets worse. 

[Rossenod]

I voted "We're Just Right," and I'll explain why here.

Most boards I've been to in the past that had more moderation, if a moderator didn't like a point someone was making, they would in some cases abuse their modly powers to delete said posts (I had a admin do that to me once on a writing forum because I made a valid point and gave evidence to back up the fact that one of her all-time favorite posters was wrong -- she deleted my post immediately, saying, "One opinion is as good as another") or to, as pointed out in the parentheses, make it sound like the post they are deleting was detrimental to the forum.

But also, I voted the way I did for another, more crucial reason: I've noticed that a lot of people on more moderated forums are not as willing to state their opinions for fear of moderators getting on their case... or overreacting to an already heated topic, which can provide for some not-so-nice situations on down the road.  On the writing forum I used to belong to, some of the most prominent members left because of over-moderation, and over-moderation becomes more of an issue when even a little bit of change in the way things are done is introduced like this.

So yeah, I think that the site is pretty much fine the way it is.  Even though people do get hurt, sometimes pretty badly (like me, for instance) I think the unmoderated forum is mostly a good thing where the good qualities really do outweigh the bad ones.

I hope this helps.  Blessed Be. 

[Cerapter]

Selroth, I disagree that we should start accusing anyone for being a problem, even if they are. I think there are better ways for someone to improve their behavior, than being blamed for something like that. It doesn't feel any good at all to be in the "problem position", and even if nobody tries to be accusing about it, it might very well be felt that way.

My stance here might be a little escapist, though. I haven't felt that there are issues in the community right now that need such direct attention. There is a time and a place for everything, and if things are bad, then what you're suggesting might be the best solution. I would like to try something else first, though.

[Selroth]

Selroth, I disagree that we should start accusing anyone for being a problem, even if they are. I think there are better ways for someone to improve their behavior, than being blamed for something like that. It doesn't feel any good at all to be in the "problem position", and even if nobody tries to be accusing about it, it might very well be felt that way.

My stance here might be a little escapist, though. I haven't felt that there are issues in the community right now that need such direct attention. There is a time and a place for everything, and if things are bad, then what you're suggesting might be the best solution. I would like to try something else first, though.

Yeah, I can see where you come from.  And perhaps I was assuming that such an accusation would be hostile or upsetting.  I just feel that the root cause of a lot of this is when someone's behavior is unacceptable to the community, they usually do not know it or mean it to be that way.  How else are they supposed to find out than it being put right in their face?  Less aggressive measures may be ineffective.

[J'Karrah]

Let people use the report buttons.  If I understand their function correctly, only the moderators know which post in what topic got flagged and by who.  Any conversation or member gets flagged more than three times could be on it's way to becoming a problem.  Then a mod or admin can check it out to see if there really is a problem developing or if people are just getting pissy.  There are also enough of us who are former mods elsewhere to recognize when a given topic needs to be checked and can pass along a "head's up" if needs be.  Or if you know one of us has been participating in the conversation in question, send us a private message and ask for our opinion.  It saves mods/admins from having to babysit the forum makes the forum sort of self moderating.

The main thing to remember is this is YOUR forum, Sel.  You pay for it on your own with out asking for donations or subscriber fees so run it as your see fit.  As users it is our responsibility to either accept your decisions or to leave.  You let everyone have pretty free reign, trusting people to behave like grownups and not let disagreements break out in to full blown flame wars and you trust us to be mature enough to know when having "strong opinions" has crossed the line into being a troll. 

When someone deliberately abuses that trust it is your choice, Selroth, to break out the ban hammer or not.  It is our choice as individual members whether to accept that decision and stay or decide we've had enough and leave.  It's not like this is the only dragon forum on the internet, after all.

But what the rest of us need to remember is if we have a problem with any given member just ignore them.  Be the better, more responsible person and don't rise to the flamebait.  It can take a lot of will power in the beginning, but after a while ignoring irritating assholes becomes second nature.  If enough people ignore them, they may get pissy, whine about being ignored and finally leave because no one will play with them any more, or they may change their behavior.  Either way, the forum wins!

[Aurelia]

I agree with J'Karrah, the report buttons are there for a reason and it means that moderators/admins don't have to be reading EVERYTHING on the site.  They can participate in the threads that interest them, but if something gets out of hand in another thread then any member can flag it and one of the mods/admins can check it out and step in.  That's happened before and it can happen again because it lets the site be run by the members in effect - you guys get to choose what you want moderated and the moderators get to have a life outside of the forums lol!

I think we have just the right amount of moderation but that members may not be using the report buttons when they feel something has gotten out of hand.  Maybe something can be included in the welcome email to new members to say about the report buttons so everyone is aware that we don't continually moderate, but can step in to moderate whenever it's needed?

[Selroth]

*Sets up an email spam rule for "user xxx has reported xxx thread on your forum!"*


:)

[Aurelia]

I've always liked that this site lets the members discuss and have input in decisions made, especially about things like moderation.  The problem is that we can't please all of the people all of the time, but the balance needs to come in finding a compromise that makes the site a good place to discuss draconity, dragons, and anything else that dragonkin/dragon lovers want to talk about.

We try things out; some work, some don't.  But as with all sites we have to rely on members voicing their opinions - it may not be the only way we see if things work, but it is something that helps us to know for certain.  I think Sel makes it easy for people here to voice opinions, but that doesn't mean that everyone will always do that, nor does it mean that everyone's opinion will be the same.

All I'm trying to say in this post is that we're fallible - just as everyone here is.  If something needs fixing then we do our best to do so, if someone is upset then we do our best to resolve that but try to let people handle situations themselves rather than it being a "nanny state" kind of site.  Hopefully the outcome is a site where people feel comfortable to be themselves, if this isn't the case then let us know what we need to do to change it; all ideas are always welcomed for discussion in this part of the forums (..or anywhere it fits topic I guess) to see how everyone feels about the suggestion(s).  We don't want the site to be a dictatorship.

[Cerapter]

In my previous job, we had a kind of karma system on the work IRC channel. I eventually found out is that the boss used it to give bad karma to those who did not please him. After a few months on the job, I discovered that I had pretty much the lowest karma around. Did I ever hear anything from my boss? Did I even know what I had done? Not really. Instead, I started disliking the job as a response to this. That dislike was reciprocated by my boss, and when I finally quit (for other reasons), there was a misunderstanding between us, and let's just say I'm not going to ask for a reference.

I'm afraid that post reporting could work a little like this. In that when something's wrong, it's not brought up and reasoned out, but instead anonymously reported to a record that is then acted upon. You might feel betrayed when you are "caught" by something like this. What did you do wrong, and why did nobody say anything?

I suppose what I want is for everyone to see their own mistakes. Because problems arise as soon as we don't. Having to tell someone they're doing something they shouldn't, is a potentially harmful situation that can take place when the best alternative failed. If everybody were noble and just, there is no limit to what we could achieve. What if we could expect that from this community?

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