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Author Topic: Girls, Save the IRC!  (Read 4417 times)

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NearToTheSky

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Re: Girls, Save the IRC!
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2009, 01:47:32 PM »

If idle would be forbidden on IRC, I would never be connected ... ever.
I sometimes look at the places where conversations are going on when I have time and take part if I have some insight to add. Or sometimes I just mention something I found interesting. People do not always feel like commenting and I'm fine with that.
If I couldn't idle on the channel, then I would never know when something is going on and if I had somethingto say, I wouldn't know how long to wait for a comment before leaving the channel again and I would probably not bother joining a channel for talking in the first place.
As for away status, it's fine if it works for you, but my personal experience is that it is easy to forget setting it and then get people angry because you didn't answer them when appearing to be around (and no, automatic away status after n minutes isn't working for me. I am sometimes busy on my computer and not paying attention to IRC).

Also, Forfaox's point is a good one, but I'd like to add that idling people won't usually notice immediately when someone joins a channel. I have seen a lot of people joining, eager to start a conversation and when I want to reply, I notice that it was 5-10 minutes ago and that they're disconnected already because no one was responding.

So, in my opinion, idling should be made mandatory instead of being forbidden.
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Selroth

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Re: Girls, Save the IRC!
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2009, 07:19:27 PM »

It does seem a lot of people have a misunderstanding of how IRC works, and why it's so successful.  With voice chat, secondlife, and other ways to have a conversation with someone, why is IRC still as popular as instant-messaging and even email?  There are still MILLIONS of IRC users, millions of irc channels, and thousands and thousands of IRC servers. 

IRC is multi-directional.  As in, when you chat, it usually isn't one on one with just you and someone else.  Though, it can certainly be that way, it's kinda against the theory.  An Instant Messager client would be better for that.  Instead, IRC allows you to talk to large groups at a time.

Just because people are in the user's list doesn't mean they should be chatting.  Just like people in your Buddy List of your favorite Instant Messenger client aren't always chatting, and the people in your email Contact list aren't always emailing.  A lot of the time, you gotta initiate the conversation by sending the email or double-clicking their name to open a chat box.  In IRC, usually if you want to talk to someone specific you mention their name.  What this will do is on that person's desktop, their IRC icon in the taskbar or such will start flashing.  The IRC will somehow notify the user whenever it catches a Highlight.  A Highlight is usually your name, or whatever keywords one chooses to be a highlight.  For example, if you were in the IRC and said either "Selroth", "roth", "Draconity", "Draconomicon", and many other words, my IRC icon would start blinking on my laptop.  And if I'm at my desk to notice the blinking, I'll open the IRC and perhaps engage in conversation if it interests me.

On a large server, that's always some kind of conversation going on in some of the channels.  One can get completely involved in as many as they can to kill hours of time, just chatting.  But, that gets boring after a while.  People don't wanna chat if they don't find it relevant to them or interesting.  So, it's also possible to set up highlights on a channel.  Anything said in a channel can make that channel flash on the screen, or make the IRC icon flash - however the person using the client wants to set it up.  If anyone says anything in #Draconity, my IRC icon will light up and maybe catch my attention if I'm not doing anything else.  To be honest, I'll usually ignore it if it's someone I don't know who only says "Hello."  That offers me nothing.  If someone I recognized, I'll probably say hi back.  Or, if they go beyond a basic Hello and start talking about something interesting, even if it's just how their day went, I'll probably engage in that conversation.



The Java chat client really doesn't do IRC justice.  I can completely understand how many people expect those to be participating, because they don't know about the installed client most users have.  They don't really understand how IRC works.  So hopefully this cleared up some things.  It's a bit too much to ask, as it's not easy easy as the single click on the "Chat" link above, but if you really wanna see why so many people love IRC even today, you gotta find a client like mIRC (google), download it, install it, and tell it to connect to irc.draconity.org on port 6680.  Then, just leave it running.  After 24 hours, you'll probably see a large conversation take place sometime in the day.  If you say hello and talk a bit, then walk away, you may find that 2 hours later someone replied.  Reply back, saying their name, and you're likely to have a conversation in real time!


Indeed, the key to IRC is idling.  It's the same principle as being signed on / logged into AIM, IRC, MSN, Y!M, or whatever. 
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Re: Girls, Save the IRC!
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2009, 07:13:54 PM »

I've been on the irc not only here but other places as well with idlers on. It is rare if ever they are interested in actual chat or even welcoming you there. I stopped going to alot of irc channels because there was never any activity by guys or girls. I just figured "What's the point of joining a chat room that doesn't chat?".

There is one site I know of that from what I've seen of it has managed to solve alot of the problems I see being addressed with our irc and other areas on their site years ago. Basically they did so by requiring everyone to respect each other and making rules like no profanity or personal attacks on the irc or forums. They did say anyone could do these things on any other site or communications just not there. They also encourage their members both old and new to welcome the newbies.  Not sure how much of this applies here, just a few things to consider.

The problem is not lack of guys or girls on the irc or even on the site. It's the overall attitude of the people who are there that makes the irc/site a success or not. An irc/site where everyone is idle all the time is generally looked on as being a dead channel or very inactive. Mostly negative conversations about other people are a warning sign to people joining for the first time as it gives them the impression this is an unfriendly irc/site to be on as are personal attacks, member bashing, over use of the ban or kick command by admins, and excess use of profanity. Not all of this applies to our irc/site, just some things that I've noticed through observation on various irc/sites I've been part of over the years.



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Re: Girls, Save the IRC!
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2009, 09:52:53 PM »

I would like to add on to that, that a certain repetitiveness isn't very attractive to newbies but also oldies.

Like with a lot of the intro's I've read through, there seem to be quite a few with a seemingly *copy-paste* attitude to the greeting.. Welcome, hope you enjoy it here.

Which, no offence, is kindoff boring, its uninterested and although it sounds like a good welcome, if its repeated with every new member, we might as well program a bot to do that :P.

As for IRC.. IRC has always been trouble when you work with small communities, I personally prefer a chatroom that kicks idlers after a while and for which on the site you can see if there's anyone in the room.
Most people who don't use irc regularly don't want to download a tool like mirc and getting on the java chat, well you'll just have to wait and see if theres anyone going to respond in the room.

If anyone wants, I could look into a chatroom that was more part of the site, that could show the amount of "chatters" in the forum itself ?
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Aurelia

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Re: Girls, Save the IRC!
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2009, 10:24:13 PM »

I would like to add on to that, that a certain repetitiveness isn't very attractive to newbies but also oldies.

Like with a lot of the intro's I've read through, there seem to be quite a few with a seemingly *copy-paste* attitude to the greeting.. Welcome, hope you enjoy it here.

Which, no offence, is kindoff boring, its uninterested and although it sounds like a good welcome, if its repeated with every new member, we might as well program a bot to do that :P.

As for IRC.. IRC has always been trouble when you work with small communities, I personally prefer a chatroom that kicks idlers after a while and for which on the site you can see if there's anyone in the room.
Most people who don't use irc regularly don't want to download a tool like mirc and getting on the java chat, well you'll just have to wait and see if theres anyone going to respond in the room.

If anyone wants, I could look into a chatroom that was more part of the site, that could show the amount of "chatters" in the forum itself ?
As already said in the shoutbox, we already have a chatroom - it's been running as long as the site has, which is 5 years now.  The shoutbox is there for any infrequent "chatters" who want to talk a bit but aren't going to sit around in the IRC.  The IRC/java is there for proper chatting though and if people want to talk properly then clicking a simple "chat" button is hardly a hardship ;)

With regards to the welcomes, we can't force members to say more than they want to in the forums lol so if they only want to say "hello" or "welcome!" to new members then that's up to them.  Most people write more than that though and vary their greetings with each new member.  Sometimes if people are in a hurry then saying "hello" is all they have time for and want to say something as a greeting not to be rude but don't have the time right then to post something more.
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Zucadragon

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Re: Girls, Save the IRC!
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2009, 06:01:08 AM »

As already said in the shoutbox, we already have a chatroom - it's been running as long as the site has, which is 5 years now.  The shoutbox is there for any infrequent "chatters" who want to talk a bit but aren't going to sit around in the IRC.  The IRC/java is there for proper chatting though and if people want to talk properly then clicking a simple "chat" button is hardly a hardship ;)

With regards to the welcomes, we can't force members to say more than they want to in the forums lol so if they only want to say "hello" or "welcome!" to new members then that's up to them.  Most people write more than that though and vary their greetings with each new member.  Sometimes if people are in a hurry then saying "hello" is all they have time for and want to say something as a greeting not to be rude but don't have the time right then to post something more.

But I hear about the chatroom that its mostly idle and if you're "lucky" you find someone who will talk back or to talk with at all.. And with the other chat room, the only people "in" the chat would also be active because if they weren't, they'd be kicked out after say half an hour (is changable :P).

But I ask again, what is the aim of the site towards members, is it playfull, is it spiritual, is it like half of each, O.o ?
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Selroth

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Re: Girls, Save the IRC!
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2009, 06:25:46 AM »

If we kicked idlers no one would be in the chatroom at all.  First of all, it's not nice ot kick people out for no reason.  And, then how would it EVER start?  Bob joins an empty channel, and isn't going to wait around in an empty channel especially if he gets kicked for idling.  So he leaves.  Then Joe comes.  He's not going to wait in an empty channel, so he leaves.  Maybe Bob and Joe get lucky and chat for a bit.  Then they leave.  Empty channel again.  THis doesn't fix the problem, it makes it much much worse. 

If you want someone to chat with, then it takes something on your end - you providing this.  If you want to fix the "problem", then you have to stay around and take the time to greet the next member the way you'd like to be greeted - same thing with the Welcome threads.  I always figured it was kind of nice to be noticed when you join a forum and people at least read what you have to say - and it shows the members that are currently active and paying attention.  It's better to say a simple "Hello" than nothing at all.  Do you expect me to write a rule that people have to write better welcomes?  lol.   

What rule can you find me on the site.  WHat rules are there in the IRC?  Look around.  If it's not also law, you won't find any.  And I'm not going to make any unless I'm confronted with a lawyer saying otherwise (in which case I'd probably just find a better lawyer protecting our freedom of speech).  Why no rules?

Well, the aim of this site is to provide a community for those with an affinity for dragons to meet and socialize.  We're a web community above all, not a resource, a bible, or committee.  I don't care if whatever is discussed on this site or not deals with dragons or whatever, just that the general audience has something in common: dragons.  Also, I want to provide the most comfortable yet free place I can provide - and it starts by not adding rules that prevent quality members from behaving the way they want to behave.  If you want to fucking cuss and say shit to the bitching hoes around you, you can here and none of the staff are going to stop you (at least, in the heated forum or IRC, and kinda a general forum theme).  Now, aside the occasional "bad word" or such around here, I haven't noticed many kids complaining of us raping their virgin ears - have you? 

I'm not going to make any rules on fowl language, and I'm not going to tell you to respect one another.  Your mother should have already taught you when and why to do those things, and the consequences if you don't.
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Re: Girls, Save the IRC!
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2009, 07:02:50 AM »

Quote
If we kicked idlers no one would be in the chatroom at all.  First of all, it's not nice ot kick people out for no reason.  And, then how would it EVER start?  Bob joins an empty channel, and isn't going to wait around in an empty channel especially if he gets kicked for idling.  So he leaves.  Then Joe comes.  He's not going to wait in an empty channel, so he leaves.  Maybe Bob and Joe get lucky and chat for a bit.  Then they leave.  Empty channel again.  THis doesn't fix the problem, it makes it much much worse. 

From my experience with other forums, it doesn't make it worse.. This is of course unprovable simply because you'd need a system like what I described, but the point of the chatroom was to know if there was "someone online" in the chatroom before you have to go and click on chat and log in on irc.
In where I've been (places like evcforum) the chatroom worked just because there were people who didn't mind waiting in there for a while, there was a beep sound if someone came in, so that was good enough.

And the kicking, well, if they're idle, they're not actually there.. I don't think its that rude but perhaps our opinions just differ on that.

I'm also not saying that because the chatroom is irc, that I'm not going to go in and chat, I just have experience with other chat rooms and figured I'd throw my two cents in.


Quote
If you want someone to chat with, then it takes something on your end - you providing this.  If you want to fix the "problem", then you have to stay around and take the time to greet the next member the way you'd like to be greeted - same thing with the Welcome threads.  I always figured it was kind of nice to be noticed when you join a forum and people at least read what you have to say - and it shows the members that are currently active and paying attention.  It's better to say a simple "Hello" than nothing at all.  Do you expect me to write a rule that people have to write better welcomes?  lol.   

No, I didn't say "write a rule" at any point, it was coupled to a question as I said before, if the forum is more spiritual oriented (or wants to be) it would be good to promote that, give friendly pushes.. I never said they "had to" but giving the chance or even the support for it proactively.

Again, I'm just talking possibilities, I'm not saying you "have to" do anything, but its a good idea to talk about options, isn't it ?


Quote
What rule can you find me on the site.  WHat rules are there in the IRC?  Look around.  If it's not also law, you won't find any.  And I'm not going to make any unless I'm confronted with a lawyer saying otherwise (in which case I'd probably just find a better lawyer protecting our freedom of speech).  Why no rules?

See my previous comment, I never talked about rules forcing anyone to anything.

Quote
Well, the aim of this site is to provide a community for those with an affinity for dragons to meet and socialize.  We're a web community above all, not a resource, a bible, or committee.  I don't care if whatever is discussed on this site or not deals with dragons or whatever, just that the general audience has something in common: dragons.  Also, I want to provide the most comfortable yet free place I can provide - and it starts by not adding rules that prevent quality members from behaving the way they want to behave.  If you want to fucking cuss and say shit to the bitching hoes around you, you can here and none of the staff are going to stop you (at least, in the heated forum or IRC, and kinda a general forum theme).  Now, aside the occasional "bad word" or such around here, I haven't noticed many kids complaining of us raping their virgin ears - have you? 

Kids raping their virgin ears ?.. I have no clue what you're on about here.. But atleast this gives me an idea of the direction you want the forum to go into, done.. Thats it, its a general forum with a focus on freedom of speech with little to no rules and just a few soft guidelines.
Quote
I'm not going to make any rules on fowl language, and I'm not going to tell you to respect one another.  Your mother should have already taught you when and why to do those things, and the consequences if you don't.

At what time have I been disrespectfull in just asking questions and wondering about possibilities for the forum.. I figured being a bit proactive might be a good thing but I'm getting a pretty heavy reaction just for talking O.o
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Aurelia

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Re: Girls, Save the IRC!
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2009, 03:02:07 PM »

I think the main point is that you're acting as though idlers aren't actually there in the IRC, which isn't a true statement for the majority of them.  People idle in a channel when they don't want to be involved in a discussion but are interested in reading it - at no point should someone ever be kicked just for wanting to read a discussion going on and not take part in it.  Also, people idle in the channel waiting for others to join, or while they're at work they idle there so they can then back-read the logs at home and make comments on points they want to and revive any discussions they don't feel were finished properly.  Kicking people from a chat room is counter productive, it doesn't matter what reasoning you put behind it.

Also, you're mistaken if you think the you have to be "lucky" to find anyone active in the chatroom.  The lurkers make it possible that you can go in at pretty much any time of the day and someone is there to chat to.  Bear in mind we have time zones here for members that span from GMT-7 to GMT+10 so you'll never get EVERYONE on at the same time and people do have real lives to live so may not be on at the same time every day.  I've never been in the IRC and not had someone to talk to in there - the people who think its dead are the ones who join, wait 30 seconds and don't even say hi, then leave thinking that noone is there.  Come in, say hello and give people chance to notice the activity - they may be at work, or on the phone, or in a private chat with someone over a serious topic, or a host of other things.  But the fact remains that they ARE there.

To answer your question, the site has always been a dragonkin site but a year ago we expanded on this to make it for anyone with an affinity or connection towards dragons (be they an artist, or writer, or dragonkin, or furry, or another otherkin who likes dragons, etc).  Topics in the forum and in the IRC aren't restricted in any way, giving every member the chance to start and participate in discussions about spirituality, art, life issues, religion, politics, sports, music...the list is endless and that is why the site works so well, because we don't put restrictions on topics or views of the members.  You're talking as though a forum has to be either spiritual or playful - we're not, never have been and never will be an RP site.  At the same time, we're not and never have had only spiritual discussions.  All discussions are welcome here.  Don't try to label the site because you're setting restrictions up that defeats the whole purpose of draconity.org.

We're a site by dragons, for dragons and anyone with an affinity for them.

If you look through the forums and take part in the topics here I'm not sure why you're having a hard time understanding what the site is about.  It says clearly in the initial intro that we're nothing to do with RP and that members are free to discuss any topics they wish.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 03:06:21 PM by Aurelia »
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Re: Girls, Save the IRC!
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2009, 03:54:28 PM »

I think the main point is that you're acting as though idlers aren't actually there in the IRC, which isn't a true statement for the majority of them.  People idle in a channel when they don't want to be involved in a discussion but are interested in reading it - at no point should someone ever be kicked just for wanting to read a discussion going on and not take part in it.  Also, people idle in the channel waiting for others to join, or while they're at work they idle there so they can then back-read the logs at home and make comments on points they want to and revive any discussions they don't feel were finished properly.  Kicking people from a chat room is counter productive, it doesn't matter what reasoning you put behind it.

Also, you're mistaken if you think the you have to be "lucky" to find anyone active in the chatroom.  The lurkers make it possible that you can go in at pretty much any time of the day and someone is there to chat to.  Bear in mind we have time zones here for members that span from GMT-7 to GMT+10 so you'll never get EVERYONE on at the same time and people do have real lives to live so may not be on at the same time every day.  I've never been in the IRC and not had someone to talk to in there - the people who think its dead are the ones who join, wait 30 seconds and don't even say hi, then leave thinking that noone is there.  Come in, say hello and give people chance to notice the activity - they may be at work, or on the phone, or in a private chat with someone over a serious topic, or a host of other things.  But the fact remains that they ARE there.

To answer your question, the site has always been a dragonkin site but a year ago we expanded on this to make it for anyone with an affinity or connection towards dragons (be they an artist, or writer, or dragonkin, or furry, or another otherkin who likes dragons, etc).  Topics in the forum and in the IRC aren't restricted in any way, giving every member the chance to start and participate in discussions about spirituality, art, life issues, religion, politics, sports, music...the list is endless and that is why the site works so well, because we don't put restrictions on topics or views of the members.  You're talking as though a forum has to be either spiritual or playful - we're not, never have been and never will be an RP site.  At the same time, we're not and never have had only spiritual discussions.  All discussions are welcome here.  Don't try to label the site because you're setting restrictions up that defeats the whole purpose of draconity.org.

We're a site by dragons, for dragons and anyone with an affinity for them.

If you look through the forums and take part in the topics here I'm not sure why you're having a hard time understanding what the site is about.  It says clearly in the initial intro that we're nothing to do with RP and that members are free to discuss any topics they wish.

Thank you for your responce, maybe I was a bit too quick in my judgement of the chat room and I want to appologize for that, I must admit that I don't have much experience with the IRC chat room coupled to this site so I jumped to conclusions based on how other sites were doing with their IRC.

I'll get more involved first, see how it is before commenting on it :P

My intention also wasn't to focus the site into a specific direction but I was just expressin curiosity in which direction it went, but by saying that all directions are open, you have answered that question as well ^^.  No labels were implied at all, just an inquiry of sorts so I can get my bearing because my experience here of course depends on the topics I join in on and I figured I'd ask for a quick clarification before I jump in and throw my arguments in one or the other direction :P

But as you explained it, I don't need to hold myself back in any direction, the site is open to topics in every range of discussion, am I correct ?
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Re: Girls, Save the IRC!
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2009, 05:04:53 PM »

Yes completely :)  Some topics obviously are prone to starting heated debates and getting some people revved up, which is why we created the Heated section of the forums so that topics in there are known to be ones that the faint-hearted may want to stay away from lol.  If any topics elsewhere do get heated though we just switch them into the Heated area, we never delete topics or lock them.
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Re: Girls, Save the IRC!
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2009, 05:18:08 PM »

Yes completely :)  Some topics obviously are prone to starting heated debates and getting some people revved up, which is why we created the Heated section of the forums so that topics in there are known to be ones that the faint-hearted may want to stay away from lol.  If any topics elsewhere do get heated though we just switch them into the Heated area, we never delete topics or lock them.

Never ?

Thats quite, unique O.o
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Re: Girls, Save the IRC!
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2009, 07:12:43 PM »

Never.  Some mistakes and misunderstanding of this policy was made before, but we seem to have it down now.

The only time I'll lock a topic, delete it, or even ban someone is if they are destructive the technology or its purpose itself.  i.e. hacking, spamming, flooding, etc. 

Quote
At what time have I been disrespectfull in just asking questions and wondering about possibilities for the forum.. I figured being a bit proactive might be a good thing but I'm getting a pretty heavy reaction just for talking O.o

Nonono, I didn't mean you.  It was directed to people in general, and in reply to:
Quote
There is one site I know of that from what I've seen of it has managed to solve alot of the problems I see being addressed with our irc and other areas on their site years ago. Basically they did so by requiring everyone to respect each other and making rules like no profanity or personal attacks on the irc or forums. They did say anyone could do these things on any other site or communications just not there. They also encourage their members both old and new to welcome the newbies.  Not sure how much of this applies here, just a few things to consider.

I enjoy people trying to think of ways to improve the site, even if we disagree with the suggested method.  This shows that people care about the site and want to improve upon it some, certainly helps it to feel more like "your website."  However, there are many things we won't do on this website, and I enjoy the opportunity to let people know why we don't do them.
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Re: Girls, Save the IRC!
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2009, 07:22:57 PM »

Well I can agree with that.. It is still your site and IŽm sure such decisions arenŽt made on a whim. But yeah, IŽll keep on getting ideas when they pop up and present them.
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Re: Girls, Save the IRC!
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2009, 05:03:58 PM »

I enjoy people trying to think of ways to improve the site, even if we disagree with the suggested method.  This shows that people care about the site and want to improve upon it some, certainly helps it to feel more like "your website."  However, there are many things we won't do on this website, and I enjoy the opportunity to let people know why we don't do them.

I know, was more making a general statement based on discussions that have come up on and off the site. Was just trying to make a few recomendations, wasn't trying to imply anything. I'm not concerned with helping it to feel like "my website". I understand there are things you won't do on this website and wasn't trying to disagree with you there.



Greylight S.
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