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[Selroth]

Ooo!  Oo!!  I withdraw everything I said earlier.  I just had an ⁱi_i^dd_d^ee_e^aa_a...

Yes, I know this is one of those 'roth ideas that drove previous Draconity.org Staff absolutely nuts, and most of the time I end up figuring out how much of a BAD idea it really is, but here we go...

The application system was introduced to prevent spam.  Now, we have a CAPTCHA (the lil letters in a jumbly image you have to type) to help against that, as well as other features.  So, to prevent spam, we probably dont need people to submit applications.  WTF, are we an employer and going to end up asking people to submit resumes before they can become part of our "team?"

New/Potential members shouldn't introduce themselves to the admins.  I was going to correct this by having them judged by their public profile, and not a "secret" application sent to just the admins to be discussed by just the admins.  Yet, I don't want to have the forum open so that any ol' lamer can just walk in here and cause all sorts of social engineering problems for the site and causing it to fail.

What happens normally when there's a group of people, and someone want to be part of it?  They introduce themselves to the entire group, and seek acceptance.  So how about people are able to make an account immediately (like most websites which just require you to click a link in an email they send you to log in), and at that point they're an "egg".  Eggs can read the entire forum, but can only post in the About Us (Introductions) forum.  To "hatch", they have to make that post and be accepted in the community.  After a day or so, an admin or mod can judge off their post, and the reaction with the rest of members, to determine if they are to be hatched and become a "hatchling" who have the normal member rights to all the forums. 

Is this not closer to the natural situation that happens in a healthy society?  And, more importantly, is this a good idea?  I for one, love it - then then I always love my own ideas :)

<<This topic is a continuation of the topic found here>>

[Cel]

I like that idea, that would allow them to post and get to know a few people, and browse some members only areas and get a feel for the community. See us for who we are, not just the general public areas. Rather interesting idea

[Aurelia]

Ooo!  Oo!!  I withdraw everything I said earlier.  I just had an ⁱi_i^dd_d^ee_e^aa_a...

Yes, I know this is one of those 'roth ideas that drove previous Draconity.org Staff absolutely nuts, and most of the time I end up figuring out how much of a BAD idea it really is, but here we go...

The application system was introduced to prevent spam.  Now, we have a CAPTCHA (the lil letters in a jumbly image you have to type) to help against that, as well as other features.  So, to prevent spam, we probably dont need people to submit applications.  WTF, are we an employer and going to end up asking people to submit resumes before they can become part of our "team?"

New/Potential members shouldn't introduce themselves to the admins.  I was going to correct this by having them judged by their public profile, and not a "secret" application sent to just the admins to be discussed by just the admins.  Yet, I don't want to have the forum open so that any ol' lamer can just walk in here and cause all sorts of social engineering problems for the site and causing it to fail.

What happens normally when there's a group of people, and someone want to be part of it?  They introduce themselves to the entire group, and seek acceptance.  So how about people are able to make an account immediately (like most websites which just require you to click a link in an email they send you to log in), and at that point they're an "egg".  Eggs can read the entire forum, but can only post in the About Us (Introductions) forum.  To "hatch", they have to make that post and be accepted in the community.  After a day or so, an admin or mod can judge off their post, and the reaction with the rest of members, to determine if they are to be hatched and become a "hatchling" who have the normal member rights to all the forums. 

Is this not closer to the natural situation that happens in a healthy society?  And, more importantly, is this a good idea?  I for one, love it - then then I always love my own ideas :)

I'm still not convinced.  The only way that idea differs to having them fill in an application is that they have to show their "application" (ie: introduction) to the whole board - which is the same as your other idea and I'm still against that for all the reasons I said before.

Having to make an amazing first impression to the whole community in just one post and being unable to show more of your views in other threads, is a very daunting thing!  I know a lot of people in dragon communities don't like being the centre of attention and definitely wouldn't want to be subjected to a school yard, pressure to perform and fit in type of scenario.

An initial application, for me anyway, is the way to go as people are familiar with it and can be more comfortable to open up when the audience you're sending an application to is smaller.  Being told "you can view the site but unless you're popular then you can't post anything" is far too intimidating, particularly for those who are struggling with draconity being new to them or for younger people (or even older people!).

[Selroth]

The difference is that they are posting directly themselves, obvious that the entire forum can read it.  Also, they can reply, which would be EXTREMELY useful when we need more information (a very, very common occurrence with past applications, but replying to them and getting a reply back was very difficult and tedious).  It'd no longer be a one-shot deal, but can become a discussion.

Also, if I can pull a statistic out of my ass, I'd say 80% of our new users post an introduction anyway.  %15 of the remains never come back to the site after their application is approved.  The other 5% are lurkers.

Now, granted people will shy away if they know their membership depends on it.  A lot of pressure can be put on that person, which isn't normally the case.  But, if we do this correctly, and have a good apperance, I don't think they will have anything to fret about.  (After all, what could they actually lose?  Just a potential opportunity)

[Aurelia]

New users more than likely won't see it as "nothing to lose except an oportunity" and unless someone will be there to talk them into seeing it that way then we will lose the potential to have a varied and diverse community.

[Selroth]

[20:00:23] <Selroth> I still say we give it a shot.
[20:00:28] <Selroth> See how it works out.
[20:00:40] <Selroth> We can always give them the option to PM an admin instead.
[20:01:02] <Aurelia> im really opposed to it but we should let the other admins/mods, and users, say what they think
[20:01:09] <Selroth> Personally, I think the application system as it was was far more intimidating.
[20:02:10] <Aurelia> i just feel that it'll be like we're saying "sure we'll approve you so you can see the board but you can't use it unless you make people like you.  oh and you only have one shot at it"
[20:02:32] <Selroth> *****BTW, do you mind if I post this conversation in the forum?  I wanted to take it to IRC cause it's just you and me back and forth for now*****
[20:02:49] <Aurelia> no i dont mind at all
[20:03:06] <Selroth> How is it any worse than it was though?
[20:03:25] <Selroth> At least now they can see what they're getting into beforehand. 
[20:03:36] <Aurelia> i dont know how it was. when i signed up all i remember doing is saying why i wanted to join
[20:03:59] <Selroth> Hmm...  True.
[20:04:41] <Aurelia> just having something simple asking why they'd like to join or what they'd like to get from the site
[20:05:13] <Aurelia> much better than making them compete for popularity, which is what it will seem like
[20:05:16] <Selroth> Right.  So you're saying users aren't trying to impress anyone with an application?  Just giving a reason?
[20:05:30] <Selroth> (Heehee, which makes sense as to why a lot of applications were far from impressive)
[20:05:44] <Aurelia> hehe yeah i dont think you need to impress and dazzle
[20:05:56] <Aurelia> giving a simple reason for wanting to join is good enough
[20:06:08] <Selroth> I think it all comes down to how we present it, if we give that impression that they need to impress.
[20:07:01] <Selroth> So again, how about letting the user choose which they want to do?  It can be made obvious in their welcome letter that they can just notify an admin privately if they dont want to post an introduction.
[20:07:11] <Aurelia> i think making them impress us isn't the necessity. getting new users to think about why they want to join (and tell us) is a good start for getting members we want
[20:07:45] <Aurelia> isnt that just over complicating things?
[20:08:37] <Selroth> "Impressing us" is kinda an extreme I didn't mean to project.  When users make an introduction now, they are comfortable enough to do so and not too worried about impressing people.  It'd be my goal to maintain that feel in the new system as well.
[20:08:55] <Selroth> Yeah, it might be.  And it may make it seem worse.
[20:10:02] <Selroth> Hmm...
[20:10:14] <Aurelia> introductions dont generally tell you enough about someone to say if they'd be good for the site or community
[20:10:40] <Selroth> It'd be a heck of a lot more than what we used to get.
[20:10:45] <Aurelia> a lot of the time its "hi a friend told me about this site so i came to check it out and hope to find some answers"
[20:11:00] <Aurelia> well what questions did you ask before for the application?
[20:11:23] <Selroth> I can almost guarantee everyone's introduction post was bigger than their application, and a better mark if they'd be good for the community.
[20:12:26] <Selroth> I don't really remember.  We just said that they need to say why they want to be at the site or something.  We didn't really ask any questions, and that was one of the problems the old site had - no one was able to change anything because T-Sar-Goth had all the rights.
[20:12:27] <Aurelia> yes and they posted all of that AFTER they'd been accepted to the site, meaning they were more comfortable and didn't feel like they were being judged as they were in the initial application
[20:13:15] <Selroth> I kinda also didn't like questions, as then it's almost as if we're interrogating them, lol.
[20:13:26] <Aurelia> people open up a lot more when they feel they wont be judged on what they say
[20:13:50] <Selroth> "Who are you?  How did you find us?  Tell us why you want to join!"
[20:14:23] <Aurelia> hehe yeah those are no good
[20:14:26] <Selroth> Application systems are just a way of sugar-coating that :)
[20:14:50] <Aurelia> better than the ones on sdb though! they sound like they already don't want you to join no matter what you say!
[20:15:18] <Aurelia> even i was intimidated by their application
[20:15:21] <Selroth> LOL.  Hey now, we're posting this in the forums :)  We can't go bad-mouthing other sites. ...or can we...
[20:15:45] <Aurelia> well, censor what name i put then lol
[20:15:57] <Selroth> Make me :)
[20:16:11] <Selroth> Heehee.  Anyway... I guess we should see what others have to say on it.
[20:16:27] * Selroth still really thinks it's a good idea though. The pros outweigh the cons.
[20:16:32] <Aurelia> i know other users there feel the same and i know a lot of dragons who didnt join because of it. which is why i'd hate for us to have an intimidating system making people post to EVERYONE to get accepted
[20:16:41] <Selroth> Besides, I don't mean this to be a site for pussies anyway.
[20:17:00] <Aurelia> no i know
[20:17:17] <Aurelia> you still need a diverse community for it to thrive though
[20:17:18] <Selroth> People post to EVERYONE all the time.  Again, it's just a matter of perspective :)
[20:17:33] <Aurelia> yes but not to be accepted to a whole community
[20:17:52] <Aurelia> when you've been accepted its easier to post ideas and thoughts because you feel more secure
[20:18:00] <Selroth> In fact, what I think will happen is no one's going to really judge, and they're gonna give the same replies they always do.  "WElcome"  "Welcome to the site!"  "Hey, good tos ee you here!"
[20:18:28] <Aurelia> well that makes it pointless then
[20:18:39] <Selroth> I disagree.
[20:18:55] <Selroth> Less work for me!  LOL!
[20:18:59] <Aurelia> hehehe people will read this and think we never agree
[20:19:25] <Selroth> Heehee. 
[20:19:49] <Selroth> It's because it's an admin issue.  Every single time I've ever had an idea about anything and talked about it with the staff, someone always disagrees :)
[20:19:58] <Selroth> Guaranteed.
[20:20:04] <Aurelia> we need to see what others think about it - i'd be interested to hear what ethel, ria and drakenigma have to say. shimdra too if he's still visiting the site
[20:20:11] <Selroth> If no one objected, I wont do it because THAT'D be f'd up.  LOL
[20:20:25] <Aurelia> lol
[20:20:47] <Selroth> Right, so lemme post this then...
[20:20:59] <Selroth> Wonder if I should color-code the lines.
[20:21:09] <Aurelia> i still prefer the idea of having a handful of regular members and the admins and mods as a sort of panel to decide who gets in and who doesnt
[20:21:54] <Aurelia> the members who have been part of the site the longest, or are always active, would know the kind of applications to accept or deny
[20:22:11] <Selroth> That'd be kinda a pain in the ass though.  Then an admin has to get to the app ASAP, copy+paste into a new thread, then check back and approve/deny.  I just checked, mods don't have the admin panel or such in there. 
[20:22:29] <Aurelia> and its still keeping it informal and away from the whole community being judges
[20:23:04] <Aurelia> hmmm
[20:23:12] <Selroth> Time kills people's interests.  I know that for sure.
[20:23:18] <Aurelia> well, see what others think first and we can go from there
[20:23:34] <Selroth> OK
[20:24:05] <Selroth> >---------------------Cut Along this line >8  ---------------------<
[20:24:18] <Selroth> (Those are scissors, BTW)

[Selroth]

New poll!

[J'Karrah]

Choice 1) Users are approved based on an application sent to only admins

Having things done by "committee" rarely works out well...

[Drakenigma]

Hmmm ... it's an interesting idea that Selroth has.  Personally, I like when new members post an intro, even if they just say, 'Hi! I'm new here'.  I can't think of how many names I have seen on the Newest Member section only to never see that person post anywhere.  If a new member wishes to remain in the shadows, I guess that is their prerogative, but as someone who generally struggles in new social situations (and would have a tendency towards lurking) I was glad to have posted an intro ... it helped me get beyond that social hurdle I tend to set for myself.

I can see the points that Aurelia is making, although this community tends to be welcoming, and I think if there is a way to communicate to the new member that an intro post doesn't necessarily have to be a thesis on them (like I think mine was kind of :Rolling_Eye_Smiley_That_Doesn't_Work_So_Just_Picture_It_In_Your_Mind: ), I don't see it being a problem.  Besides, if they want to continue to lurk, they still can ... they just can't post.

Edit: I'm withholding my vote until I've seen more views on this.

[Drakenigma]

What?  Did I kill this thread?  *applies defribulator patches*

[Aurelia]

Yes it's all your fault *sniff* the poor thread had no chance! *sniff*  :'(

Hehe people have been voting though even if they haven't put a reply as to what their decision/reason is.

[Ethelshai]

I chose the second answer, but I think that the applications should be reviews by staff members only.

[Scryden]

2nd choice, decided upon a finely chosen comitee.

[Airy]

Hmm.  I haven't quite made up my mind on which way to vote either.

*Tries some analysis...*

That's an interesting idea, actually.  But what are the benefits and drawbacks?

So, right now we have the situation where if someone wants to join, they need to fill out an application, and that application is then reviewed by the administrators.  And if the administrators thinks the person "makes the cut" they are allowed to make posts and access the restricted parts of the forum.

So what are the benefits and drawbacks of this method?
Benefits:
Already implemented
Simple process already established
Involves only a small number of people


Drawbacks:
Employer feel
Intimidating to new users, interrogation feel  Selroth -- "Who are you?  How did you find us?  Tell us why you want to join!"
Potential new users do not have have only a limited view of what the site is about.
Potential users approved based on the views of a small group of people (administrators)


Now if you're thinking about changing the application process to this:

Users get immediate approval with initial rights to post an introduction, and are granted full rights based on that and the responses

What are the benefits and drawbacks to this method?

Benefits:

Easier for prospective users to join the site and see what it is about
Less restrictive to new users
Fairly simple process to implement
Potentially a less intimidating process
More realistic?  Selroth -- "They introduce themselves to the entire group, and seek acceptance."
Introduction posts better at determining fit for community? Selroth -- I can almost guarantee everyone's introduction post was bigger than their application, and a better mark if they'd be good for the community.

Drawbacks:

Allows vindictive people easier access to forum
May require current members to be more cautious in greetings
Requires more thought put into banning/restricting members (explained further down)
More weight on introduction?  Aurelia -- Having to make an amazing first impression to the whole community in just one post and being unable to show more of your views in other threads, is a very daunting thing!
New users may have to compete for popularity? Aurelia -- much better than making them compete for popularity, which is what it will seem like


I don't know if I got everything there.  This format makes it a little easier to see some of the potential benefits and pitfalls.  (And if someone else wants, make an analysis of the second option too.)

I wanted to comment a little more about banning/restricting members.

If it was made easier for a person to join the forum, and people became full members by simply from an introduction post which other members agree is good (maybe borderline good), but what would happen if their next few posts aren't as good?  I don't know how likely this scenario is.  But I think if you're going to change the method of joining, and put more responsibilities on the members for this change, it needs to be watched.

Just one more thought for now...

Also, if I can pull a statistic out of my ass, I'd say 80% of our new users post an introduction anyway.  %15 of the remains never come back to the site after their application is approved.  The other 5% are lurkers.

Maybe is this correct, or you're looking at this in a different way, but I see a lot of 0 posts Members on the list.  Maybe this means that it is intimidating making an introduction post already? 

[Ethelshai]

I keep thinking that the application process is necessary for the good health of an Otherkin forum. The purpose is not to intimidate newcomers with questions, but to try and see if they don't misunderstand the goals of this place. How many times have we encountered people who think they have found a RP forum ? I saw many cases of kids thinking they were playing a game and who hadn't even cared about serious/spiritual topics, eventually asking 6 months after joining "Btw what's an otherkin ?". So, for this reason, I think that the application system MUST be kept.
Now, about who decides of who is let in or not, I guess it's better to leave this to the staff (admins and mods). Because, the staff know about the inner workings of the community and are generally quite experienced. Moreover, if I was a newcomer to any place, I would certainly find it more intimidating to know that the application will be reviewed by anyone passing by. As a result, leaving this to the admins and mods is certainly not a foil to new members.

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