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[Selroth]

Since I've been trying to involve the actual users more in the administration of this website (and the development of the new website), I'm presenting another discussion.  Draconity.org used to be called "Draconomicon", which is  a title largly affiliated with the role-playing game Dungeons & Dragons.  Because of our website name, we encountered a LOT of roleplayers and the target audience of the website became the minority.

We resolved this over time by first implementing an application system, where new users would have to fill out a simple form, and an administrator would have to either approve or deny user entrance depending on what they wrote.  Most of you had this done.  We were initially looking for people who obviously just wanted to roleplay, and had no idea what the site's actual theme was about.  Since then, it's evolved - we got a bit pickier about who we let in and who we keep out since there was obvious "lamers" and people who would simply damage the community.  Also, as the website became hammered with spam, it was a primary defense against spam.

Overall, in effect, we've accidentally become an elitist community.  We only let those in who we want to let in - it essentially boils down to that.  Is this right, or wrong?  Is this the community's founder's intentions or not (that'd be T-Sar-Goth, who no longer participates)?  

There are some serious "pros" to keeping the application system the way it is (and perhaps enhancing it).  It lets us define and control the website's target audience (who, after all, we're footing the bill to provide the service to those people).  It keeps out spammers, and people who obviously aren't able to hold an English conversation.  If the right questions are asked, we can also see how compatible these people are compared to the rest of the community.  And, while far from perfect, it is a deterrent against people who were banned from the community.  

However, the website is no longer "open".  Also, it takes time to write an application, the admins to recieve it, and certainly time for us to review and approve/disapprove.  The website is no longer welcome to anyone and everyone, and certainly doesn't qualify for free information exchange.  And while the admins do their best not to pass illegitimate judgements or personal opinions on potential users, we're still human and are not perfect.  Most importantly, I feel, is that the purpose the application system was put in place is no longer a qualifying reason - we are no longer being bombarded with roleplayers.

The application system has to remain with this current website technology as it is our only defense against the several spam-bots we see each day.  However, the prototype website (and any newer forum technology) has defenses against this (such as a verification code where you type the letters found in an image).  So, I bring this up for discussion to determine the effect it is to have on the future website (http://draconity.thewestgate.net).

[Rogwell]

I cannot make any immediate suggestions at the moment but you mentioned two very important details that must be taken into consideration: is the website open or closed? Do we let any body in (or a broader audience) or do we choose who we feel will benefit the community? We also have to consider that as a community, as a whole, we have matured and grown in our own views. This leads to a much higher standard of acceptance of those who are new. I hate to say "do a survey" as while the short essay questions are fine it may be too taxing for new users to answer more content; especially those who do not understand the community as it is - this applies even to True/False|yes/no type questions. For me the question that keeps coming up is how to get an honest reply - without doing some sort of extended survey to catch the applicant off guard when they are honest it is near impossible to truely tell if an applicant is who they say (and again without being over whelming.)

[Etath]

Because I know (from experience) that Dragon Realms would not have been the same without it, and I am quite sure this place would also have been quite different without it. :) As Ria put it, it is a necessity.

[Ethelshai]

An application system is really necessary, in my opinion. It's not an elitist thing, but rather a way to avoid not only spambots, but also to filter potential troublemakers. Keeping it will not frighten newcomers off if they are sincere in their application. I really think it's best for everyone to keep the application system.

[Drakzeel]

Maybe you could remove it for a small amount of time, see where it gets us, and then put it back on if we start seeing an influx of immature users?

We could sit here and theorize the effects of removing the system, but we'd never truly know until we tried.

[Tysha]

I think its best to keep it too. There are many 'open' forums that roleplayers, spammers and troublemakers can join, we need a few sensible sites where we can enjoy a serious discussion.

[Ethelshai]

Maybe you could remove it for a small amount of time, see where it gets us, and then put it back on if we start seeing an influx of immature users?

From my experience of forums, once one lets immature users do what they want, even for a very short time period, it's almost impossible to turn back to the previous situation. Because the only amazing thing is the speed at which they can spread havoc, settle, and scare serious members away. This would be a real problem :/

[Rogwell]

From my experience of forums, once one lets immature users do what they want, even for a very short time period, it's almost impossible to turn back to the previous situation. Because the only amazing thing is the speed at which they can spread havoc, settle, and scare serious members away. This would be a real problem :/

Give an inch they take a mile - this is true. I would never suggest to remove the system due to this reason.

[Airy]

I think its fine to keep an application system.  Somehow I got in here.  :dragon_shock:

A related question then that maybe you're asking is "How restrictive should we be in our application system?"

I cannot make any immediate suggestions at the moment but you mentioned two very important details that must be taken into consideration: is the website open or closed? Do we let any body in (or a broader audience) or do we choose who we feel will benefit the community? We also have to consider that as a community, as a whole, we have matured and grown in our own views. This leads to a much higher standard of acceptance of those who are new.

How restrictive do we want to be in letting in new members?  Is it possible that it is getting more or less restrictive as our own views change?  Do we want that to happen?

Though, now that I think about it, I don't think we've had any new members introduce themselves for a couple months.  Is the new user application system working now? :drag_confused:

[Selroth]

It's working... I think....  You're right that we haven't had anyone new introduce themselves in a while O_o.

Imma look into that...

[Fury]

I think you first have to decide what kinda members you want for the forum and the forum goals before setting a user application in the new site.
New members(not rpiers) can learn  to post and a very restricted community may suffer if a member is gone.It`s hard to decide .
I know it`s mainly your decision but what does  TSar want?

[Selroth]

Unfortunately, what T-Sar wants seems almost irrelevant.  He's not active with the community anymore, and not too sure if he sees himself as the owner anymore.  I have the large majority of content and capabilities on my own servers, so technically he only owns the actual DNS domain name since it's in his name.  

I'm not saying I don't respect him, or that I don't recognize that he started it all.  I'm just saying that he probably doesn't care one way or the other.  I'll see if I can get a conversation going with him on the matter anyway.

[Rogwell]

Its one of those situations where some one started some thing - a book, a movie, a game, a website - and over time the fan base and fellow contributors lift the weight off the creator's shoulder as he/she watches his/her baby grow up.

In regards to how strict we should be, well, I do not think there really is a way go gauge that with the exception of the obvious role-playing and other 'pretending'. There have been topics on who is genuinely honest about their beliefs and those that are just along for the ride like it was a fad and ultimately it boiled down that it was near impossible without being overly judgemental.

If we limit the growth in terms of shear numbers rather than interests it may be easier to allow more users in over time and weed out the bad seeds as they come instead of trying to stop every body at the gates. At least it will seem more inviting that way.

[Selroth]

You pointed out a very big problem I have with applications.  How does on really know if they just want to RP, or if they're "pretending".  For one thing, often they aren't even aware of it themselves.  It also excludes people who may be "authentic" and just haven't realized yet, or are looking for more information.  Maybe it hasn't been inspired in them.

One method the admins have used is see if the applicant demonstrates any understanding or mentioning of draconity, dragonkin, otherkin, therian, or related subjects.  That narrows it down quite a bit.  It's not perfect, as it doesn't filter out all the people we don't want, and it excludes some who we would welcome, but I can't seem to think of a more effective thing to look for.  And I suppose that's the issue we have at hand now.  We DO we look for?

Good communication/writing skills (or at least adequite to have a discussion) are a given.  What about intelligence (heh, we can actually often see how "intelligent" one is in their application, surprisingly enough)?  What should be some key items in looking for compatibility?  We can certainly target more aspects with a form or such, compared to this site which has a single text box hinting to no specific subject.  But, I don't really want a "form", heh.  Nor really an "application" (that's just what we call it for lack of a better word).  

Hmm...  Maybe I should leave it as it is on the new site where on registration they can fill out 2 boxes which are viewable by all members in their profile: "Draconity: Describe your relationship or affinity with dragons (optional):"  and "Biography:
Tell us about yourself outside the world of dragons (optional):".  Perhaps leave both as optional, and add a "For reviewing admins' eyes only" box.

[JoeCapricorn]

I have an idea for a better application system.

It would weed out most spammers, as well as those too illiterate to read the rules.

What you do is on the new user login only, have a rule in the middle or towards the end of the rules, after all of the very important ones that isn't actually a rule, but says, "And if you read these rules, you must put in the code (or an answer to a question): ksjdfkl2" and in the application, one of the required fields is actually a section where that code is entered, or a question is asked... and the answer is in the middle of the rules, so a new member would have to read the rules first before ever gaining entry into the site.

This would weed out spammers, as there could also be a Captcha on the application.

If someone still causes trouble, that is on them, they get banned. They read the rules, they had to to get in, and they still broke them. No excuses.

Overall, I disagree with an administrator having to accept or deny membership. It gets VERY elitist, and I have encountered places where I cannot get in just because the administrator hates me, or there were completely unfounded concerns over my behavior. Now certainly, I don't know you to be one to hold grudges or anything, but I don't know you well enough to come to the conclusion that you are not a grudge holding person...

My suggestion would save the trouble of reviewing each application, while at the same time avoiding the problem of denying someone who was actually legitimate.

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