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[Selroth]

One thing I've been considering/stalling on for the new website is forum organization.  If you take a look at the forum Index currently, I feel it's rather poorly laid out.  Also, I want to introduce some new things.  Also, I don't know why, but previously decisions like this were kept just to the admins.  Why exclude you all?

Anyway, that's why I'm opening this thread.  Let us discuss!  This is how I feel about our current forums:

Introductions - I love this forum.  Definitely a keeper - a perfect place to start your own thread just about you.  Perhaps it can be taken a little bit further.

Chat & Off-topic - is anyone else confused by the difference between the two?    And how can we be "off topic?"  I'm intending this to be a home where our mostly-kin members can talk about whatever they want.

Stress relief - Hmmm...  Maybe?  Maybe this should be renamed to "crying out" or something.  

Draconity.org - we should have our own section.  One for news, one for events, another for questions and junk.  Maybe.  Or do I just want to feel special?

The whole spirituality section - WTF?  A "Dragons only" forum doesn't seem to work out all that well, and it's kinda elitist.  And when posting a topic, is it necessary to divide between "Being a Dragon" and "Being otherkin"?  And isn't all that pretty much "spirituality" anyway?  We should find a better way to categorize these topics.

The art section is neat.  But I think it should pretty much just be an area where people can "express themselves" (in fact, that could make a good section name).  The "dragons in culture" thing should go in the Chat forum, I think.  I've also been thinking of a "Draw me!" forum - think that could work?

The Administration forums are currently hidden, but maybe they shouldn't be.  The only problem I see with these being public is when we have to communicate about problem users.  But, if one really thinks about it, it be somewhat benefitial and outweigh the cons.  And if you were doing something wrong, wouldn't you want to know before the Draconity.org Staff does?  I dunno, food for thought I suppose.

On IRC, we have a popular Maturity channel.  It's an exclusive channel with even less rules, and gives opportunity to discuss among the older members.  Not always are "mature" topics discussed, but they do come and go.  You must be over 18, have been around the community enough for people to know you, and are elected in by the staff.  However, you can be kicked out by anyone without reason.  So, I was thinking of allowing the same freedom (and also the high-risk) into the forums.  A "yiff" forum (an idea T-Sar had ages ago, and has been presented a few times in the past) could be included, as we no longer have those kinds of server limitations.

So....  thoughts?

[Rogwell]

I agree with most of what you said - the chat & off topic sections were definatly confusing. I viewed the spirituality section like "General Dragons, Otherkin Beliefs, General Spirituality", kind of the way the discussions carry out in those forums. The arts & enertainment section is probably fine as is (Art, Literature, Culture, Games) - I don't visit the lit & writings sections very often so I cannot speak of their significance.

My only concern is what you mentioned last - yiff. I always kind of felt that yiff was a blighted aspect of the furry world that attracts a lot of negative attention (actually a phenominal amount of negative attention). I have have no issues with furries, thats not my concern, I just feel uncomfortable having a mature forum that is seen as a degradation of communities.

[Karnanyd]

I agree with a lot of what you have suggested, Selly.  The chat/off-topic thing is rather confusing.  The "dragon's only" seems to be a hold over from back a loooong time ago when there were different levels of membership here.

However, I strongly object to making the admin forum public.  That would just turn into a huge pain in the ass for everyone.

I also very much object to having a "mature" forum.  Making sure everyone is over 18 would be difficult, for one thing.  Also, I agree with Rogwell that we should keep our community above such things.  The last thing I'd want to see is a bunch of people come here just for the "yiff".  I know that #Maturity is not all about yiff and it's worked out well in IRC, but bringing it to the forums is taking it to a whole new level, and I doubt it will be for the better.

[Ravtrag]

I also very much object to having a "mature" forum.  Making sure everyone is over 18 would be difficult, for one thing.  Also, I agree with Rogwell that we should keep our community above such things.  The last thing I'd want to see is a bunch of people come here just for the "yiff".  I know that #Maturity is not all about yiff and it's worked out well in IRC, but bringing it to the forums is taking it to a whole new level, and I doubt it will be for the better.

I just wana say I agree too. If some one wanted that kind kind of chat, theres plenty of popular forms for it. And youger people could join, and get the wrong impression by seeing it.

And Games form could be moved into the Dragons and Otherkin in Popular Culture, because Games count as Popular Culture.

[Nezdragon]

I'm thinking that the forum could look something like this:

GENERAL CHAT:
Introductions
Chat
Stress Relief (could be renamed to something along the lines of Support & Advice or something)
Geeks (working title, for discussion of all manner of geeky stuff and games)

DRACONITY.ORG
News and Events
Questions (working title)

DRAGONS (working title)
Dragon Stuff (for discussion of dragon items and such)
Dragon Chat (working title, for discussion of dragons in general)

SPIRITUALITY:
General Spirituality
Being Otherkin
Meditation (working title, we ought to have a place for discussing things of that nature aside from general spirituality)

ART
Art by Members
Creative Writing

RANDOM STUFF
Random (both working titles, I'll explain below)


It's not a comprehensive list, just a general idea of stuff simplified down (and a few things added).  Like it's been mentioned, some of the boards are redundant or too vague.  I've got a few ideas on how to fix that!

Some of you might be wondering what the 'random' board is.  I'm not saying it should be included, but I think it would be a good idea to have an actual games forum.  Anything RP-esque can be contained there, and it would be a nice addition to the community.  I've brought this idea up before, and it was shot down on the premise that we already 'have' a place like that at entertainment.draconity.org.  If it's still a separate forum (which I can't tell, since it won't load), then that makes it rather pointless, as it's just a different (albeit very similar) community.  Now, if this idea is still out, then I suggest making it easier to access the site.  First off, there are no links that I could find to it, and secondly, it required you to sign up independantly of the main site.  Just a thought.

Stress relief - Hmmm... Maybe? Maybe this should be renamed to "crying out" or something.

I dunno, it sounds kinda emo or something.  XD

Draconity.org - we should have our own section. One for news, one for events, another for questions and junk. Maybe. Or do I just want to feel special?

Events and news are pretty much the same thing, eh?  Two sections could work.

I've also been thinking of a "Draw me!" forum - think that could work?

That kinda goes under the line of requesting commissions and such.  If we wanted to, we could try an art trade of sorts like other sites have been doing.  However, I'm not sure what the turnout would be for such a thing.

The Administration forums are currently hidden, but maybe they shouldn't be. The only problem I see with these being public is when we have to communicate about problem users. But, if one really thinks about it, it be somewhat benefitial and outweigh the cons.And if you were doing something wrong, wouldn't you want to know before the Draconity.org Staff does?

Isn't it supposed to be the moderator/administrator's jobs to notify problem users of something they're doing wrong in the first place?  I don't see that kind of thing going well, as there are some decisions that should be left up to the administration.  If you want to make some decisions with the support of the member base, you can always announce it like you're doing now.

On IRC, we have a popular Maturity channel. It's an exclusive channel with even less rules, and gives opportunity to discuss among the older members. Not always are "mature" topics discussed, but they do come and go. You must be over 18, have been around the community enough for people to know you, and are elected in by the staff. However, you can be kicked out by anyone without reason. So, I was thinking of allowing the same freedom (and also the high-risk) into the forums.

If such a place is done (there is a place in another forum where advanced 'kin topics are discussed, but you have to be 'voted in' by the staff in order to see/post in it), then it would have to have some strict rules regarding who gets in it (it probably shouldn't be visible to the community) and what can be discussed there.  It would naturally require more moderation than usual.  I'm not quite sure what would be discussed there, but I'm not going to take either side on the issue... yet.

A "yiff" forum (an idea T-Sar had ages ago, and has been presented a few times in the past) could be included, as we no longer have those kinds of server limitations.

Originally, I was going to state my thoughts in a more roundabout, diplomatic way like the other members have.  The more I thought about it, the more blunt I've gotten.  What the hell do we need a 'yiff' forum for?  I can kinda see the appeal it may have with some of the older members, but there are so many ways that such an idea can go, and none of them are good.  Any 'benefits' that such a forum would have would be vastly outweighed by the potential for abuse, not to mention the degredation of the community in general (yes, even if the forum were hidden).  Forgive me for being more blunt than usual (and probably more than necessary), but if people here want to get their jollies on, there are plenty of other places they can take it.  I'm not sure about the motivation for such an idea, but I can't stress how many ways it can and probably will go wrong if implemented.  I've always thought this community above such things, and I really don't want to be proven wrong.

In any case, my above ideas for the forum layout are only rough draft type stuff.  Half the names are just working titles, and it is probably missing a few things.  Any questions, I'm usually around.  Ask away.

[Shimdrashula]

However, I strongly object to making the admin forum public.  That would just turn into a huge pain in the ass for everyone.

I also very much object to having a "mature" forum.  Making sure everyone is over 18 would be difficult, for one thing.  Also, I agree with Rogwell that we should keep our community above such things.  The last thing I'd want to see is a bunch of people come here just for the "yiff".  I know that #Maturity is not all about yiff and it's worked out well in IRC, but bringing it to the forums is taking it to a whole new level, and I doubt it will be for the better.

Same here.

Administration is for administration. If something about the site needs to be posed to the community, it should go under "Draconity.org." Administration should remain as it is for security and courtesy reasons.

I also strongly object to a "mature" section of the forum. There's no small amount of trouble that can arise from it. For one, there is no way to secure someone's age, since there is a large amount of anonymity with members. It can also degrade our image and the sort of attention we might want. The site may try to encompass draconity in all its forms, but this is one that may be best left alone.

[Selroth]

OK OK OK, I get it.  No "yiff" forum.  Just threw it out there because it has been mentioned in the past, including the site founder.  And I suppose if any age-restrictive forum would be opened, there's no need to open it at the same time the forums are changed around - it'd be hidden anyway.  We'll save that for down the road.

Everyone seems to agree on the ambiguity.  Perhaps, rather than categorize things, we should un-categorize.  We have.... 14 public forums.  That seems like a lot.  And after thinking about it some more, is there really much reason to spread the contents into that many forums?  What are the pros and cons of having many forums?  Maybe some of us are just obsessive-compulsive about categorizing and organizing?

The roleplay idea is a no.  I hate to be a hard-ass on this, but it's a firm no.  We started off with it, and it became a cancerous tumor of the site and attracted unwanted guests and a harsh division in the community.  It took years to finally resolve this, with them content as their own independent website (http://www.thedragonsgames.com).  It seems to be that "authentic 'kin" and "roleplayers" don't mix, especially since the area between is extremely sensitive subject matter.  I'm not touching that again with a 20-foot pole.  If The Dragons Games gets a bit more solid (and take our old logo off for one...), then we'd be fine with being sister sites or something.  But, they seem to be more interested in roleplay than site design (not that there's anything wrong with that).

To my experience, being open without censorship proves to be the better choice, and I figured to relate that to the private Admin forums we have now.  Going through the Admin forums, I think about what would happen if others could see it - and I don't really think anything terrible would come from it that doesn't happen anyway.  Do you all think I'm over-optimistic?  I like to think that we have a more mature member-base and would like to.... "practice" that (for lack of a better word).  

In case you all haven't noticed, I'm a bit of a risk-taker and figure I'll never be original unless I step outside the comfort zone.  The biggest successes are successful because they tried something new.  

Anyway, after a bit of review of the current topics and issues we've had in the site, here's my 2 cents on forum organization:

Code: [Select]

General
News and Events - The staff to you, and you to the staff.
Chat - Anything goes!  Be silly and/or off-topic!

Our Space
Introductions - Come in!  Stay a while, and tell us about yourself!
Your Creations - Share your productive hobbies with us!
Support and Advice - We're friends here.

Draconity, Otherkin, and Therianthropy
Discussion and Debate - Ask questions and let us debate!
The Calmer Side - Talk to the open end of our minds.


In addition to the above, it is completely possible to have "Member's Only" sub-forums in the above, which I think would be a great idea.  Also, if other restrictive groups ("Adults only", "Dragonkin only", "100+ post-count only", etc..) were added, they could be added in the same manner with sub-forums and only visible to the respective groups.

[Airy]

I like the idea of a Discussion and Debate, and Calmer Side subforum. (Or whatever names are used.)  After all, some of us are rather opinionated around here. :drag_hyper: I think is good to have a place to discuss sensitive issues without feeling threatened, but also putting your beliefs under scrutiny and having them challenged and learning to defend them is very helpful to see what issues are involved in those beliefs and how well they hold up.

I could be wordier about that, but I'll stop. :roll:

[JoeCapricorn]

I'd have to disagree with opening the admin forum up to the rest of us. While it has its benefits, some things ought to remain among the administrators...

I mean, 'problem users' alone is a strong enough objection to opening up the admin forum... It could reignite old problems, ignite new ones, and so on...

I strongly disagree with a 'mature forum'... don't want Draconity.org to turn into Furcadia... And this somewhat ties in with roleplay, what if a bunch of people just joined this place for dragon yiff? I wouldn't want that.

Finally, I also disagree with other levels of sub-forums that are only visible to certain members. It'd be best to keep this site simple, with the only forum not open to everyone being the admin forum.

[Karnanyd]

I don't like the idea of having different levels of membership that give access to different areas of the site.  To me, that eliminates the inclusiveness that we have tried so hard to cultivate here.  We currently have two levels: members and admins/mods.  Any more than that and it's like creating exclusive clubs within our exclusive club.

I am going to back Sel up on the "no roleplay" policy for sure.  The roleplay issue was a huge mess, and it's just better for us to leave that all alone.  For one thing, we try to be a "serious" dragonkin forum, in the sense that we want people to take draconity seriously.  We don't want confusion about what we are (ie. we are not just role players who have gone too far into our own fantasy worlds).  Roleplay is not a bad thing in itself, of course.  But from past experience it seems that this particular site is better off without it.

[Selroth]

What about "Member's only" and only that?  Draconity can be a private issue and people may not want the common googler to come across their material.  At the same time, we do want to interest and possibly educate our non-member guests.

[Ethelshai]

Personally, I think that the admin forum should remain hidden. It has been until now, and nobody never complained about it.

[Nezdragon]

The roleplay idea is a no. I hate to be a hard-ass on this, but it's a firm no. We started off with it, and it became a cancerous tumor of the site and attracted unwanted guests and a harsh division in the community. It took years to finally resolve this, with them content as their own independent website (http://www.thedragonsgames.com). It seems to be that "authentic 'kin" and "roleplayers" don't mix, especially since the area between is extremely sensitive subject matter. I'm not touching that again with a 20-foot pole. If The Dragons Games gets a bit more solid (and take our old logo off for one...), then we'd be fine with being sister sites or something. But, they seem to be more interested in roleplay than site design (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Well, considering a yiff forum was suggested... Just kidding.  :dragon_happy:

I never really expected it to go through in the first place.  Just a thought while they were being thrown out there.  I wasn't thinking of roleplaying so much as just random games (counting, poster above you, etc.) that other sites occasionally do.  However, I can understand the problems it may cause, so the topic is dropped on my part.

The biggest successes are successful because they tried something new.

Not to burst your bubble or anything, but some of the biggest failures were because new things were tried and failed.  Just food for thought.

Also, if other restrictive groups ("Adults only", "Dragonkin only", "100+ post-count only", etc..) were added, they could be added in the same manner with sub-forums and only visible to the respective groups.

I have to back up Karn's opinion on this.  The current members system we have is fine as it is.  If you want to add a forum for discussion of more advanced 'kin beliefs that isn't viewable to the general public, that's fine.  However, I don't think we need to be splitting up the member base willy-nilly.  Age restrictions are hard to enforce, it's not that hard to claim to be 'kin, and there are plenty of people with good opinions who don't post often.

What about "Member's only" and only that? Draconity can be a private issue and people may not want the common googler to come across their material. At the same time, we do want to interest and possibly educate our non-member guests.

Perhaps you can make some sections (like the draconity ones) unviewable to the general public, with certain 'example posts' to interest any guests?

[Fury]

A yiff forum is not advisable and adm forum must be kept invisible,that´s the summary of many opinions here.
Mine too.

[Selroth]

OK, so that's decided.  What about structure/organization?  Do you all like my proposal in the code block?

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