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[Raukoamin]

Sometimes those who's responsibility it is to fix the problem grow tired of fixing it over and over. If you don't understand what I just said, then chances are you've never been put into a place of any real responsibility. I can understand Selroth's frustration. No, I'm not a moderator, but even I pay attention to what everyone has to say.

Yes, it may be wrong that Selroth use only Airy as a public example, but that is just what it is, an example. Never did he say that Airy was the only member who gives him problems. It's just the fact that after you've dealt with a problem so many times without gaining any ground, sometimes you have to shout to be heard and it's easiest to find a point of focus then to try and focus on everything at once.

I've always found it mildy ammusing, but Selroth is right about the religious quotes being used to back up peoples' posts. Even I grow bored with people saying they are right because their religion says so. Religion is nothing more than belief in something, and so it is debatable but not provable, and therefore should not be used to try and "prove" someone's ideals. I can't tell you how annoyed I get when people use their religion in an arguement against me when I'm not religious.

[Karnanyd]

I don't necessarily agree with Selroth exposing all the complaints we've had about Airy, but I will back him up and say that we have had them.  I know from personal experience as an admin here that all the Christian discussion here has been turning people off of the site.  Religious discussion has never been the issue, and we have had Christian dragons here for a long, long time - I'm one of them - but we never used to have quite the level of in-your-face Bible thumping like we've had recently.  (That hasn't been all Airy's doing, of course.  We seemed to get a few highly vocal and opinionated Christians in at around the same time.)  

As an admin and a Christian this has been a very difficult situation for me to handle.  How can we possibly ban religious discussion on a spirituality website?  But when we get complaints about it and watch people leave and have people asking us why the site has turned into one big debate about Christianity it seems like we have a problem.  I probably should have spent more time here when I was an admin trying to find a way to balance the situation, but I didn't, and so I bear at least partial responsibility for this if it causes a lot of drama.

I think some of the Christian posters here (and a few other posters, let's be honest), do certain things that are really irritating.  Here are some few I can think of off the top of my head:

- Bringing up religion in every single topic, regardless of whether it applies or not.
- Continuing to go on and on and on about your point of view, even when it's clear that people already know what you believe.  (Seriously, on most topics you can just say something along the lines of, "I believe this, and this is why."  You don't have to then keep coming back to the thread and arguing about every other person's opinion.)
- Using the Bible as an objective authority.  Many, MANY people do not believe in the authority of the Bible, so while you can mention what the Bible says on a topic, don't expect everyone else to agree with you just because the Bible says so.  When possible it's best to use other sources of authority, at least in addition to the Bible.
- Trying to use the forum to convert people.  It's not going to work.  If someone finds something you say interesting enough, they will probably follow up on their own.  Most people here have already heard all your brilliant points and have made up their own minds.  Continuing to push it isn't going to help your case any.

Well, that's my random 2 cents off the top of my head.  I'm sure I could write more or word what I've written better.  But I need to catch a bus.  Bye!

[Selroth]

Thank you very much for your contributions.  On exposing Airy, I'm sorry.  But, as Raukoamin said:

sometimes you have to shout to be heard and it's easiest to find a point of focus then to try and focus on everything at once.

I like Airy in many ways.  He was great with the contests and recently supplied his ideas for new ones.  He was also about the only one to help me test the prototype website for Draconity.org's potential upgrade.  So, he does contribute a lot to the community as well.  I don't want to ban him nor do I want to see him leave.  And, it's not really about Airy anyway - this has been a problem for a while with a few different members.

[Drakenigma]

If someone was running around the forum saying "I think you're all retards", they're stating an opinion. I will act on that opinion as I feel it harms the nature of our forum. If someone was running around the forum saying "You're all going to Hell because you don't believe in Jesus", that's .... whatever... and I will still act on it as I feel it harms the nature of our forum - Christian or not. As said earlier, religion is up for discussion, for the purpose of discussion. If it harms the nature of discussion, then it is not welcome.

Perfect ... that is exactly what I would hope for.  Communication is like a teeter-totter (or seesaw, if you prefer), and the responsibility for ethics always shifts back and forth between the two sides.  If I decide to call everyone chowder-heads, then you should deal with me harshly ... the responsibility for the other person's hurt is on me.

If I state a belief such as, "if you do not believe in the Great Pumpkin a pox will fall upon you and your family for seven generations," be it my belief or not, that is not appropriate and not useful for any discussion with the context of this site in mind.  Albeit my belief or not, again the responsibility lies with me and should be treated accordingly.

However, if I share some belief that is seemingly neutral to most, but may impact someone enough to contact you (or the staff) and complain, where is the responsibility then?  Certainly some lies with me because it was my belief and I stated it, but I think much more lies with the person that was troubled, and I think this is the root of the problem being addressed in this thread.  If many people contacted you as you say (and I don't have reason to doubt you), then so be it.  This type of situation has a lot of gray area, and I don't envy you or any staff member for having to make the choice on how to resolve it.  Still, I think privately may have been and probably is the best choice, but in this case what's done is done.

Sometimes those who's responsibility it is to fix the problem grow tired of fixing it over and over.

Then you fix it right the first time, or keep working at it until it is.  Like most everything in life, consistency is key.  And by the way, Selroth's post began with a salutation to Airy, so the example theory really doesn't pan out here.


Finally, in my earlier response I made a comment that Selroth was seemingly being immature.  Since I've just now spent time talking about responsibility and communication above, the responsibility here is mine.  It was immature of me to use that comment in making my case, and I apologize for doing so.

[Raukoamin]

Then you fix it right the first time, or keep working at it until it is.

Not to argue this point, but I couldn't help but laugh. It's extremely rare that any real problem can be fixed on the first try. In a case where multiple uncontrollable variables (such as inidividual ideals) cannot be controlled or contained by a single source it becomes impossible to find a perminate solution to the problem. As long as people have free will and can think freely, there will be no solution to end pointless arguements. I'm not saying that we should take away peoples' free will for the sake of making places like draconomicon better for everyone, I'm just saying that trolling and over-excited christians (just examples) will always exist as long as people choose to be that way.

You're right about one thing though Drakenigma when you talk of where the blame for an arguement or debate lay. If person x (using selroth's example) gets overly excited and says something to offend person y, it is person x's fault for the starting of the arguement. However, if person y becomes offended by person x's opinion and openly states his own in deffense, then he too shares the blame for the arguement. If person x says something relevant to the topic yet without doing so in a manner that would attempt to offend person y and still person y is offended, blame for the arguement lay with person y simply for the fact that x was not trying to offend anyone yet y took offense. There's also the possibility of a misunderstanding, which comes with a lack of communication between two sides in which case blame lay again with both individuals (or all involved).

[Hebby]

Also id like to point out something with public vs private resolving of issues, depending on the case, sometimes it may be better to have things public, then, the general population of the board has an understand and example of what is/isnt accepted so much, so, even if things get resolved with one person, others will learn from it and the likelyhood of it repleating because another member starts to do the same thing will be lessened, also others can inform new people if they feel things are starting to head down the same path and prevent history from repeating, if the majority of the forum has a understanding of the greater purpose of the community.

[Drakenigma]

... or keep working at it until it is ... what is so difficult to understand about that? :roll:

Hebby, I used to believe the same thing, but turnover is high and I think new members either come in with an understanding of how to be respectful or they don't.  It doesn't matter how many public trials are held, there is always someone else willing to come along and commit the same crime in the future.  That is, unless the system of justice continues to follow through (remember consistency?) with whatever plan they have to punish the offenders, and the laws are clearly defined.

This is starting to sound a little too serious. :?  You might be right; I guess my point is that publicly embarrassing someone does not guarantee future returns on your investment.

Person X is having coffee with person G, and person B calls X and invites him to a rave in town K.  Person X is unfortunately in city 4J, and must board a train that travels at 47kph SE with one three hour layover in Dayton, OH ...

All this talk about alphabet people is making me dizzy ...

[Shimdrashula]

I guess my point is that publicly embarrassing someone does not guarantee future returns on your investment.

Especially since offending posters tend to not backread through threads before posting in them.

[Karnanyd]

turnover is high and I think new members either come in with an understanding of how to be respectful or they don't.  It doesn't matter how many public trials are held, there is always someone else willing to come along and commit the same crime in the future.

That's part of the reason why I became tired of being an admin.  Dealing with the same things over and over again becomes really tedious.

[spitfire]

Selroth I am in total agreeement with you. I have seen more than once certain members (Sorry i don't like to name names if i must do that i will send a pm to a mod or admin)take a post and it into a discussion totally off track. Case in point If I were a dragon turned into a debate on who harmed Mother Earth more cars or cows. I am still shaking my head on that one.

I just wish everyone could stick to the post title. If it get alittle off track fine just remember to get back to the topic of the post.
If someone makes a mistakes with their use of a word and correct themselves that should be the end of it. Don't contuine to beat them over the head with it.

Hostile post are ok if they are on topic and there is no all out bashing of other members.

[Raukoamin]

... or keep working at it until it is ... what is so difficult to understand about that?

Just out of curiosity, do you read others' posts before commenting, or do you just pick a sentence, quote it, and throw in your opinion? My point in what I said, since you seem to have missed it, is that some problems are not easily solved. Being the one to solve the same problem over and over without any real prevail can get rather frustrating. Yes, you keep working at it, but work at it for so long and you'd also want a break.

Anyways, I've noticed lately that a lot of people (not just on draconomicon) seem rather edgy these days. Easy to jump to defense, which is just what members do in draconomicon. Most members who end up in heated debates forget about the thread topic and focus on the arguement at hand. Ending such debates is usually as easy as someone (rather then joining in) reminding everyone of what the topic is. Rather then joining in on the arguement or complaining to an admin, why not just jump in and break it up. Consider that it takes two people to argue, so by arguing with another member, you're just as guilty as the person you're arguing with.

I personally urge members to debate over topics, but to do so without offensive language or tones. The fact that multiple sides of a story are brought out by debates is something that I enjoy because it allows me to see things from multiple angles. Now, if two people can debate a topic without bringing religion or offensive tones into the topic that would be grand. Since this is very unlikely, why not everyone pitch in a little on putting an end to such arguements.

As much as he'd love to be able to, Selroth cannot put an end to all hostile posting. Why, because being hostile in posts is choice, and choice is free will. So instead of crying to Selroth and expecting him to fix everything, why not pitch in. As I said earlier in this post, most arguements can be broken up simply by reminding those members arguing about the topic, why not just do so? Believe it or not, there's not a whole lot Selroth can do about it that you can't.

[Airy]

However, you didn't know the effects you were having on the community, and I feel that writing a message like this, in this tone, was the only way to make you realize. If this is something you think you can remedy, then I'd like to see you around.

With my comments I did not intend to belittle the work you and the other administrators have done.  And as far as administration goes, I think you've done great job considering how busy you are and have been very tolerant.  I'm sorry if it sounded like I was criticizing you.

[Drakenigma]

I read your post and got your point the first time Raukoamin, so you can relax now.  Sorry if it kept you up all night. :roll:

I slept very well, btw. :D

And since you asked:

... or keep working at it until it is ... what is so difficult to understand about that?

Just out of curiosity, do you read others' posts before commenting, or do you just pick a sentence, quote it, and throw in your opinion?  [Opinion commences here]

Oh, the irony ... I love it! :D


[/offTopic-ness]

[Raukoamin]

It may dissappoint you, but while I was up late last night it wasn't over draconomicon. I see there is no real point in trying to explain my replies to you since you seem to be more set on arguing them then listening to them or discussing the topic.

By the way, for my quotes. Because of various other sites that I use that do not have the quote button for posts, I've grown accustomed to writing out the coding rather then using the quote button. Which is why when I quote someone it doesn't say Someone Wrote: In fact, as you've probably noticed, sometimes it doesn't even come up as a quote and just says quote in [] before and after the sentence I'm quoting. We both know who I was quoting in that message.

[spitfire]

I dont think this topic is working much as a waring to the ones it is being directed at. All i am seeing is more arugments and bad reactions.
Don't get me wrong most of the bad reactions are more than justified my all means.
How is this site to grow if all that is posted is agruments of the use of words, belittling others points of view if you don't agree with them, try to force your beliefs on others and telling them they are wrong because they don't have the same beliefs as you?
Why not try telling others why you have that point of view or belief so the other person can understand where you stand on that issue, instaed of telling them they are wrong or belittleing their point of view or belief.