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[Selroth]

Personally, I like it when people get passionate about a conversation, and maybe turn it into a debate or even an out-right argument as long as points are being made.  In a way, they are amusing.  And, they must be entertaining to the participants in some way - they're so irresistible to anxiously check up on!  I think everyone should admit they can definitely be fun at least for a little while before they get annoying.  

In addition, every time we do this we learn a bit about communicating.  Maybe it takes a bit of shame, and embarrassment.  Maybe it takes a realization that no one replies to your posts anymore.  Maybe a combination of things.  And even if one is dumb as a rock, they can make gradual improvement with time, especially if it is a repetitive problem and they know it as a problem.

This is a website based on discussion, and conversation.  And we get passionate, and when we get passionate and opinionated we can conflict easily as we're all individuals.  So, have at it, if you can do so in a manner that promotes more conversation!  That's what we're here for.  We're not trying to hammer out the facts of dragons or anything.  Take a look at our purpose, and the very theory of discussion forums like these.

So, that's kinda my stance on things.  It may seem like chaos, but I don't think it is.  If things were just flame wars and lamers, then the conversations would die once people grow tired and abandon the site.  Potential members would find very little to gain from the site, and it would die.  So, flame wars aren't appropriate.  But, being passionate and opinionated, even if wrong, is.  

So, I'm kinda wonder what everyone else's thoughts on the matter are.  I'm just one person with one opinion, and could be wrong :)  How do you feel about some "hostile" posting we've seen for some time now?

[aaarhus]

Well, as long as it's "hostile" as you put it I'm all for it...

I'm not for flame wars though. :drag_think:

[Drakenigma]

Labeling most threads "hostile" is relative to the reader (which is why you likely put it in quotes); some are just uncomfortable with passionate debate.  I'm 100% with you on this, Selroth.  If a thread does become "hostile", most members will just ignore it (and likely the member who causes the hostility, to their shame).  And if it gets out of control, that's what moderators and thread-locking features are for.

[J'Karrah]

I don't mind intense, heated discussions when they are varied and interesting.  However, when you have one or two posters who are nothing more than "one trick ponies," who turn *every* debate, regardless of original subject, into the exact same argument then you are dealing with a troll not a passionate participant.

They'll push and push until they've run off damn near everyone except the most die-hard of opponents (people who enjoy playing with trolls because they are so easy to bait) and their pet views dominate the forum.  When people start asking "when did this become a _____ group/forum instead of a dragon group/forum" you know you have a troll.  

And it's generally only a short step from people asking that question to people leaving the forum completely.

[Dradolan]

I see most of the time Airy and Vellos debating. Its funny in a way but, sometimes they never think of us, the ones who have o scroll all the way down and it would take 30 seconds to do so. I consider them as the debate team leaders. SInce they looooooooovvveee to debate, argue and contradict each other. But i don't hate them, they're awsome in a way.

[Lace_Dragon]

As long as people are contributing something and learning from each other, then it's a good thing. But if you're speaking to someone who does not want to learn and it's like talking to a brick wall, then there is no need to continue the debate.

[Karnanyd]

I don't mind intense, heated discussions when they are varied and interesting.  However, when you have one or two posters who are nothing more than "one trick ponies," who turn *every* debate, regardless of original subject, into the exact same argument then you are dealing with a troll not a passionate participant.

They'll push and push until they've run off damn near everyone except the most die-hard of opponents (people who enjoy playing with trolls because they are so easy to bait) and their pet views dominate the forum.  When people start asking "when did this become a _____ group/forum instead of a dragon group/forum" you know you have a troll.  

And it's generally only a short step from people asking that question to people leaving the forum completely.

I am very much in agreement with J'Karrah.  Personally, I think people should grow up and learn how to discuss something without having to resort to "hostility".  I think that lately people have been asking "when did this become a _____ group/forum instead of a dragon group/forum", and I have noticed that many people who used to post frequently have mysteriously... disappeared.  I know I've stopped reading many of the threads here because they just go around in circles and have nothing to do with draconity.  The problem is, when people stop replying, the "one trick ponies" (to use J'Karrah's turn of phrase) might think they've won the debate, whereas, in reality, people have just stopped caring and can't be bothered anymore.

[Selroth]

Hmm...  Some very good points have been brought up, and maybe my way of thinking could use some revision.  I have noticed the two-way arguments that drift off-topic as well.  Even though these may not be flame wars and do have some content to their posts, they may not be what's best.  The forum is supposed to be for everyone, about topics relevant to the community's theme.

I'm not entirely sure if these things can be evaded with how the forum is set up currently.  If moderators were to raise the flag, that almost always just kills a thread completely - and it doesn't do any good to have strict moderation.  Besides, it's not like it's really something that blame-able on the users - it's not necessarily their job to be aware of the effects an argument can have.  Even if you could blame the user, what does it accomplish?  I certainly prefer this place to have a very relaxed atmosphere, with rather passive moderation.  But, I may be wrong.  Would you all prefer more or less moderation in our forums?

[aaarhus]

... But, I may be wrong.  Would you all prefer more or less moderation in our forums?

Well... I don't really know how to put it as I can't "beat around the bush" so to speak.
 :drag_confused:

There was a thread I had made that... well, on other forums I've been to (including a mailing list) it got great feedback that had me consider other things.
More specifically, the "Food -> Shifting?" thread I made.

I got mundane reasons, general thinking on the subject... it was wonderful.

Here though, I noticed that it was just... tossed into chat, when I had tried my best to put it under a corresponding subforum...
 :drag_cry:

And, another thing I had noticed... in threads I've been to, very rarely does going "somewhat" off topic warrant a "get back on topic!! *whipLASH*" to the forum goers.
Here though... it's like, I might be exaggerating slightly... but it's like I think I tried to make an on topic post... I thought it was on topic, and I get told to "get back on topic".
 :dragon_shock:

Granted... those things haven't happened lately. But lately I also haven't been posting as much because my thread died... and I don't really have a comment for carbon dating... for "truth"... things like those.
 :drag_confused:

I still do lurk though. I just can't really remember a good post I have made as of late that really seemed to mean something to me.

[Drakenigma]

I've never thought of this site as having heavy moderation, or even moderate moderation for that matter compared with some of the other places I have visited.  I don't think it is a question of how much moderation there should be; rather, appropriate and objective moderation is what is needed when it is needed.

For the most part, members here seem to do a decent job at keeping themselves under control.  I've seen very few examples of trolling on this site, and those few have been handled by the staff when they've occurred.

As I mentioned before, unless one member is clearly out to antagonize another member or is acting disrespectfully, it is the sole responsibility of the reader on how they feel about a discussion or topic, and the onus cannot be placed on the contributor of said topic.  Now, in this scenario, if the offended person PM'ed one of the staff with their concerns, even if that staff member does not see a problem with the post, they could always PM the contributing member(s) with the concerns of an anonymous member and request him/her/them to consider 'toning it down' for the sake of the offended.  I don't know how the staff is supposed to stay on top of this or even if this solution is truly effective ... but I don't believe most of the members here are interested in causing someone else harm and would probably go out of their way to nullify the situation.  Then again, maybe I'm too optimistic about the membership here? :?

All that being said, I respect Karnanyd and J'Karrah enough to reconsider my opinion and be open to whatever is decided here.  As you said Selroth, the current setup of the site promotes some of these discussions (you cannot have a Spiritual forum and not expect full discussions about different faiths, dragons or no), and I don't know how you go about changing that unless you implement a "24/7 all posts dragon style" site rule ... and as much as I love dragons, that's just dull IMO.

[Raukoamin]

Heh, even while I was away from Draconomicon I still dropped in occasionally to look things over. I ammuse myself by studying human reasoning, both on and offline. Seeing how people often get passionate, and sometimes over passionate, about thread topics was always somewhat interesting to me.

As for my view on this, while they do ammuse me I agree with Jkarrah and Karnanyd.

[Airy]

A couple of things I see as relevant.

There was a topic a while ago, The Incidence of Mental Illness.

Of the people that chose an option on the poll, fully 32% of the people admitted they were "normal".  (The other 68% admitted they were not.)

and I have noticed that many people who used to post frequently have mysteriously... disappeared.

I'm not putting bad motivations on the administrators here, there was also an incident in the past few months where we also lost a number of active members, the banning of an overly active member that was sometimes overly passionate (and sometimes out of control).  I understand this was done in interest to preserve the culture of the site; now that some time has passed, it might be good to look at the decision and see how it did change the culture.  Has it advanced discussion or limited it?  Have people felt more or less comfortable at the site?  As how it related to me, I essentially lost all the "moderates" in my discussions.  To connect it to the previous point, it is difficult for people with certain "mental illnesses" to walk on eggshells.  I think some of the closeness they felt connected to the site was lost.

So, how do you minimize losses of people and yet keep a good discussion on topics?

Now, in this scenario, if the offended person PM'ed one of the staff with their concerns, even if that staff member does not see a problem with the post, they could always PM the contributing member(s) with the concerns of an anonymous member and request him/her/them to consider 'toning it down' for the sake of the offended.

I feel this way about it.  It might also be good to remember that there are real people behind the posts, that have real strengths and weaknesses, just like us, and are still learning (many are young).  It may be good to remind people of the basics of communication.  Remind people to beware of taking offense at a post that may look offensive (some styles of writing may look offensive, though they are not meant to be, and sometimes jokes are just bad.)

I would say more, but that's enough from me for now.  :drag_hyper:  Always trying to analyze things from every angle, I am.  I try to keep my short posts to a minimum.  (See, bad joke there!  :dragon_shock: )

[Selroth]

Airy,

You don't have a damn clue what you're talking about and I'm sick of it.  You think that people are uncomfortable and leaving because of W_Dragon's ban?  That just goes to show how similar you and W_Dragon really are.  It's people like you who make my consider abandoning the website.  Now, obviously I'm not the best admin (this very post is probably a good example of that), but what's left after me?  There aren't very many active long-term members around anymore, and that's probably because after reading your posts they feel the same way I sometimes do.

But, you probably didn't know this.  Why would you?  How would you?  I'm the one who gets the complaints of your posts - you don't.  I wasn't too sure what to do, because you are active and your posts at least do have some content to them.  And it's not like you're malicious or anything, but you're quick to debate and your stances are firm but on sloppy ground.  You don't seem to understand what others are saying very well, and you pull on your own un-cited opinions - or worse, religion - to back you up in an extremely diverse community.  

Are you still welcome here?  Yes, of course.  I appreciate the effort you make, and many aspects about you.  However, you didn't know the effects you were having on the community, and I feel that writing a message like this, in this tone, was the only way to make you realize.  If this is something you think you can remedy, then I'd like to see you around.

[Drakenigma]

You don't seem to understand what others are saying very well, and you pull on your own un-cited opinions - or worse, religion - to back you up in an extremely diverse community.

Oh, you mean like this opinion here:

There aren't very many active long-term members around anymore, and that's probably because after reading your posts they feel the same way I sometimes do.

That seems like conjecture on your part, and not particularly fair to lay blame or personally attack any one member in the public eye with nothing but un-cited opinion.  Furthermore, there are plenty of un-cited opinions roaming the streets of Draconity.org, and to point a finger at one member ... who, in my opinion, has offered more references and links to back his arguments than all but a handful of opinioned members here ... seems a bit illogical, and kind of immature.  Wouldn't you agree?

Also, most of the 'religious' opinion has been isolated to posts within the Spiritual section of the forum.  Explain to me how this is a problem.  In a 'diverse' community, you are going to have a few people whom you might label religious fanatics, but in fact are people who adhere to a certain structure of beliefs ... huh, just like you might as well, religious based or not; isn't that strange?  To make the case that an opinion that comes from a 'religious' viewpoint is somehow worse than pulling an opinion from some orifice is not only intolerant, it really shows how out of touch you are with reality.

You're free to believe as you will ... it doesn't matter to me one way or the other ... but please don't lambaste someone else for expressing their opinion, in context and with respect,  simply because it may come from a 'religious' or dare I say Christian viewpoint.  That's not very Admin'able of you.  

In close, let me remind you of your own words in the open of this thread:

This is a website based on discussion, and conversation. And we get passionate, and when we get passionate and opinionated we can conflict easily as we're all individuals. So, have at it, if you can do so in a manner that promotes more conversation! That's what we're here for. We're not trying to hammer out the facts of dragons or anything. Take a look at our purpose, and the very theory of discussion forums like these.

So, what really is the purpose of this or any discussion-based forum?

 :drag_confused:

[Selroth]

Citations...  On something like this?  Here's the situation: Person X complains to me.  I kinda shrug it off.  Person Y complains to me, I start paying more attention and seeing what's going on.  I talk to person Z about the situation to see how they feel.  Technically, I can cite person X, Y, and Z - however they chose to talk to me in private for a reason.  Perhaps they will publicly state how they feel in this very thread to my appreciation.  But, I won't ask them to do so.  

As far as I know, Airy just pops some keywords into google or wikipedia and links the pages without reading them.  But, I don't think that's really the case, or the problem.  I think he's just not understanding the points made by others.  In other words, I feel he's ignorant.  Now, is this something that should be discussed publicly?  Maybe, maybe not.  In fact, I don't really know what's best - I don't want to humiliate him as I do care for him, but at the same time I want him and others to understand what the issue is.  I'm having a hard time making my choices, but at least I'm making choices.  Making the wrong choice, and learning from it is better than never making a choice at all.

Maybe I just haven't cared enough to put tons of thought into these last 2 posts.  Maybe that's what needs to happen - maybe I'm over-thinking things.  There are many issues on the site that are stressing me, some of which remain invisible to most members such as trying to get a technology upgrade for the site, changing hosts, modifying something in the database, or dealing with the applications.  I've considered leaving the site, but what would that accomplish?  In fact, I'm not too sure if Shimdrashula would be up to admining the site alone, and that's not my intent.  If I left the site, it'd feel like running away from the problem to me.  I've been tasked to take care of the site and deal with problems like these, I'm not going to simply walk away like past administration.  So, rather than going from trying too hard to not trying at all, I'll find a comfortable medium.  And I'm pretty comfortable with this.



Religion is up for discussion, for the purpose of discussion.  Lately, it seems to be used to end discussion.  "Well, the bible says _____, so there.  kthxbye"  That's the problem.

If someone was running around the forum saying "I think you're all retards", they're stating an opinion.  I will act on that opinion as I feel it harms the nature of our forum.  If someone was running around the forum saying "You're all going to Hell because you don't believe in Jesus", that's .... whatever... and I will still act on it as I feel it harms the nature of our forum - Christian or not.  As said earlier, religion is up for discussion, for the purpose of discussion.  If it harms the nature of discussion, then it is not welcome.